Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby madmax » Fri Jul 22, 2011 6:36 pm

Bandit1 Hmmm... :thinks: I think the diagram would only be useful in clarifying delineation between the particular property issues. It doesn't clarify much else.

It certainly and clearly isn't intended to define what property is subject to the claim in question (edit: in terms of pipes/haunching/brickwork/backfill). On my copy it simply shows how to distinguish between private soil feeds and communal ones and which are to be the subject of the claim and which are not. My diagram is entitled "How Will Responsibilities Change" so is intended to cover that topic.

If the pipework alone was the subject of a claim it would be a simple enough matter to dig up the pipe and hand it over to it's new owners. Clearly that's reducing to absurdity and I'm confident handing over the pipework wouldn't nullify STW's property rights claim. I suspect there will be the creation or easement of some sort along with transfer of a certain amount of both land and property ownership - possibly "in trust" or similar as with the road in front of your home (which some on here may be aware belongs to the property owner. Caveats re allodial title again).

Equally important issues to consider are, can you be subject to a (contractual) penalty if say you raise the mahhole or if you break/damage what was formerly your "own" property. Looking recently at documentation relating to water meters STW are unashamedly keen on pointing out the punitive consequences of interfering with STW "property" which is installed in your home.

AFAICS this stuff touches deeply into the contents of Veronica's book FIMTJASLW
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby bandit1 » Fri Jul 22, 2011 7:32 pm

Max, I've looked into the easement theory on the front of property and basically I think it's a crock. :thinks: I have found no hard evidence to say there is a trust or whatever set up. :puzz: A friend works for the land registry and say's the same. I am very open to all ideas/theories/suggestions but will only believe them if they stand up in law.
This pipe shite cooked up crap (no pun intended) to get more money out of you via your own pipes on your own land makes me roar with laughter, what next the pipe work up to the thunder box and by the way you can only use the local water authority crack wiping paper (mexican accent) :police: "£1 a sheet Senor". :giggle:
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby madmax » Fri Jul 22, 2011 9:39 pm

Bandit1 - I probably didn't explain it well. I'll try to clarify if I can, just to address the subject of easements but not to get bogged down in it...

I'm not equating "easement" with trust issues relating to parking as such. I'm saying that, when considering the issue of land and access in this context and in relation to a claim of ownership on pipes, then there may be an easement or some equivalent loss of liberty within the bounds of your own property involved. I'm not an expert on easements but I know from my time with the Gas industry that this is common and is enforced to gain forceful access to equipment owned by utility companies such as meters, cables etc.. Easements are almost certainly a separate issue derived from my original post but consequential to STWs plans.

Using an analogy of kerbs, roads, parking and trusts would really be a separate issue but merely analogous rather than directly related to this separate issue. If the analogy isn't useful to shed light on this one then please discount it as introducing confusion by taking the analogy too literally is making things less, and not more clear.

I'm saying that there are issues such as this which render it a more important and complex issue than just the physical pipework. One may find this out if breaching the contract and say erecting a conservatory or other structure on your own land without the express permission of Severn Trent Water PLC. This issue is covered on the copy of the leaflet I got and it points out in writing that you need will to seek their permission. You lose certain rights to "enjoy" your property in an analogous and analogous way *only* to losing the use of your own house frontage. You are likely also to put yourself in the position of liability to contractual penalties and ultimately fines and imprisonment for failure to comply with any easement or equivalent legal concept.

For anyone else reading this and who isn't sure what an easement is, it is covered here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easement :yes:

An easement is a certain right to use the real property of another without possessing it.


E.g. by STW or their successors. Who will be undoubtedly be money-grabbing global corporations
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby chomerly » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:28 pm

I too have received this letter/notice but i live in a council property so appeals would have to be made by them. Not that they would.

With all of this, and some of the posts i've read, I would be more concerned about the fact that this now gives the/a water company the 'legal' right to install monitoring hardware so they can calculate the amount of waste water coming through YOUR drains.
They're doing it now with Gas and electricity in the name of 'energy efficiency' so why not with water too?
Seriously, the unlimited options for extra charges outside of the list that Madmax has already stated would extend to another green tax of sorts so expect new legislation from the government which has been constructed by the combined robbing bastard water companies.
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby madmax » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:58 pm

Chomerly - Yes, *if* the council owned the properties, possibly the subject for a completely separate discussion, then they'd need to challenge this. Certain groups are clearly granted exemptions. Ostensibly on the grounds that they're groups which already part of the "big scam" or where opportunities to extort money easily are offset by what would otherwise be genuine expenditure.

I don't think they'd nesc. need ownership of your pipes or ancillary land to extort money. You'd be charged due to discharge regardless. What transfer of pipe ownership would allow is for an increasingly high level of charges for "maintenance" and access to what would then be *their* property. Comparing to existing electricity, gas and water supplies isn't analogous due to the lack of homogeneity in the "goods" sewers transport and their much higher potential for damage/blockage/maintenance costs. As with all these confidence tricks, the initial costs are shown as being a mere "few pounds" per year, but as anyone over about 30 years old should know, these are just "teaser" costings for a later bait-and-switch type increase.

I've had other updates from friends in other water areas who have received similar letters. Some comprise of a letter *and* a notice of proposal. So far, all the communications contain a legal proposal.

I have in mind my reply and I'm re-reading Veronica's book but was concerned to make my response water tight whilst keeping it honourable.
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby newmannewy » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:45 pm

I like how its a "proposal to adopt the sewers"..

I was thinking of sending them a proposal to adopt their whole business.. And give them 30 days to reject my proposal. :giggle:

If they do not rejct my letter do I then get complete ownership of seven trent water :thinks:
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby madmax » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:17 pm

newmannewy You could try it I suppose. If you knew what you were actually claiming and who the rightful title owners were.

What would you offer as consideration (or as Veronica defines it in here book "equal consideration") in such a contract? The consideration is stated clearly enough in the O.P. here if you've received one of the STW or similar proposals. Many (even most) people won't spot it as such though.
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby huntingross » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:47 am

madmax wrote:This morning I received a "notice" from Severn Trent Water addressed to "THE OWNER" (caps) stating their intention to take "responsibility" (for this, I read "ownership") of the sewers and/or lateral drains on my property. I'm not too happy with this.


I have responsibility for, but no ownership of -
My daughter (until she can take responsibility for her own actions)
My dog, who takes reponsibility for its own actions (mostly)

A farmer might own cows and graze them on my land, I have responsibility to ensure they do not get onto my neighbours land.
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby madmax » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:28 am

Huntingross

Code: Select all
I have responsibility for, but no ownership of -
My daughter (until she can take responsibility for her own actions)
My dog, who takes reponsibility for its own actions (mostly)


I've looked at the comments but I'm not sure what your point is there, or how any of this clarifies the STW isssue. You don't own your daughter, but,in all probability the state does if you registered her birth. You do own your dog rather than being it's "keeper". The responsibilities you mention cover various types of obligation at least one of which can be disposed of. You can sell or give away or dispose of your dog and remove the moral & lawful (v's legal) obligation to be responsible for it but you cannot legally sell your daughter. You can even kill, euthanise or destroy the dog although I don't really want to side track into rights and obligations to animals. Your dog has no obligations under either common law or statute law for it's actions so the issue of responsibilities there is not relevant and it isn't therefore "responsible" in any way as far as i can see it.

There are various tests of perfect/imperfect ownership covered in Black's Law etc. but as I already pointed out, the consequent issue of easement (if STW is considered a "neighbour"), or possibly "licence" after the transfer has been effected may be as problematic as anything.
http://www.blacks.worldfreemansociety.org/2/O/o0866.jpg Ownership
http://www.blacks.worldfreemansociety.org/2/O/o0865.jpg Owner (including tests such as destruction and despoiling)

A farmer might own cows and graze them on my land, I have responsibility to ensure they do not get onto my neighbours land.


You have common law obligation there to avoid harm arising from activities on your property. The ownership of the cows is a non-issue in this context and again, I'm sorry but I don't see how this clarifies the STW issue. If anything, it just adds to the confusion.
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Re: Severn Trent Adoption of Private Sewers and Lateral Drains

Postby kevin » Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:15 pm

chomerly wrote:They're doing it now with Gas and electricity in the name of 'energy efficiency' so why not with water too?


of course they are, they are called electricity and gas meters
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