energy bills

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energy bills

Postby holy vehm » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:57 pm

Had my gas bill through with a prediction for the next 12 months. The estimated gas bill for the following year is £1000.
I worked out the electricity bill and that to is £1000.

So for the two, over the next 12 months is £2000

Enough is enough now.

What i want to do is buy a generator and put it outside in a brick bunker, half in the ground. I want to connect this directly to the mains for heavey usage during the day. The geny will also trickle charge a bank of batteries to run the house during the night.
We have a boiler/heating system that can run on gas or elec, i will run it on elec. I will use gas bottle for the cooker.

Our usage is around 18 kwh per day with out running the boiler/heating on elec. I dont know what elec usage the boiler/heating would use.

Questions.

How do i know what type of geny to get. It would need to be durable for long period use, approx 12 hours a day every day and needs to be silent running.

How do i take the elec from the geny to the house, do i need to convert ect.

What do i do to charge the battery bank and how do i get the elec from the battery to the house in 240v. The batteries will be fork lift truck types, heavey duty and durable.

The way im looking at it is, im having to fork out 2 grand a year for power so i may as well spend that in on the above and never pay that again. I was thinking of running the genny on veg oil. I can get used and cleaned for 85p a litre, 500 litres is £425. I do not know how long that will last at this point.

I aslo worked out my water bill, which is around £600 per year. Not much i can do at the mo to lower this although i do use the hosepipe a bit which i could run from water butts on the shed roof.
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Re: energy bills

Postby kevin » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:19 pm

holy vehm wrote:I worked out the electricity bill and that to is £1000.

So for the two, over the next 12 months is £2000


extortion isn't the right word but comes close.


holy vehm wrote:How do i know what type of geny to get. It would need to be durable for long period use, approx 12 hours a day every day and needs to be silent running.


most small generators aren't designed to run for long periods like that, paying the fuel on a larger on would probably cost you more than the gas and electric you already use

holy vehm wrote:How do i take the elec from the geny to the house, do i need to convert ect.


No, they can generate 240V ac the same as your mains. you just need a cable into your consumer unit after you disconnect the mains supply.



holy vehm wrote:What do i do to charge the battery bank and how do i get the elec from the battery to the house in 240v. The batteries will be fork lift truck types, heavey duty and durable.


you'd be better off with solar to charge the batteries. my mate fitted his own quite cheaply. however he doesn't run the whole house on it all the time, he uses the batteries at night only most of the time, the house is wired 240v & 12V dc. you'll need an inverter to convert the battery power into 240v ac, large enough to supply the power you need, you need to allow for having the fridge, washing machine, hoover going all at the same time, that's a big inverter!

holy vehm wrote:500 litres is £425. I do not know how long that will last at this point.


depends on the size of your engine, not all engines are happy on veg oil, especially pure veg oil, and in winter you'll need a heating system on it. can you get a reliably supply of veg oil? (if so where from and can I have some ;) )

holy vehm wrote:I aslo worked out my water bill, which is around £600 per year. Not much i can do at the mo to lower this


go on a water meter if there are only a few in the home, thatll bring that bill right down, or don't pay, they aren't allowed to cut you off on public health grounds.

holy vehm wrote: i could run from water butts on the shed roof.


I use that to flush my toilets, I have a down stairs toilet nr the back door and a bucket next to it, simple except in dry spells it doesn't fill up. it's usually green and has mosquito lava in it but great for flushing the loo, wouldn't like to use it for anything else though.
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Re: energy bills

Postby huntingross » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:39 pm

This was an excellent thread for what you're proposing

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=6245&hilit=lister&start=10#p55811

The Lister engine seemed to be favourite, but it is a fact that a beat up old diesel car comes with everything you need, diesel engine, alternator, pumps, heaters, fuel tank, pump, silencer.....most of what you need is at the front, the back can be cut off and scrapped....infact, if you keep it on the wheels you can push it to where you need it and pop a shed over it if you felt the need.

The alternator could be swapped to 240v or stay with 12 and invert.

The hot water from the radiator can be piped through a primary circuit in a domestic water tank and you have hot water....put an immersion heater in it for boost if required .... 3kw for an hour would give you hot water for a day (maybe) from tap temperature....you'd be boosting from significantly hotter than that most of the time.
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Re: energy bills

Postby holy vehm » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:41 pm

Thanks kevin.

I have had alook online at the vast array of gennys available. If i use 20 kwh do i need a 20 kw genny?
Does a 20 kw genny mean it can produce a maximum 20 kw at a time?
I wouldnt be using upto 20 kw at a time but throught out a 24hr period.

Once i can isolate the right genny for the job i can work out how much fuel it will take.

As for the solar panels, i have a link where one is home made rather cheap, so that is prob a good idea to charge the batteries. Its also working out how many batteries to run the house from say 9pm till 7 am, when consuption is low and use the genny 7am - 9pm when things like the washer and drier are on, plus the heating and boiler.

Its really hard to work out the usage throught the day or to see what each thing consumes.

And yes kevin, extorsion it is, and set to rise. Acccording to the msm, the price of houshold bills set to rise 20 % on 1 august.
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Re: energy bills

Postby holy vehm » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:52 pm

Thanks hr,

I have to keep it almost silent as not to disturb the neighbours, so this would prob rule out using a car, as much as a good idea it is, as you say it provides hot water as well as the electricity.

A lister engine would be good to charge the batteries but it wouldnt run the house direct (i think). Its also loud.

Im looking for a simple system, although it requires a large outlay, perhaps the cost of a years utility bills, there after its just running costs, even if it costs a grand a year in fuel to run the genny its still our power costs halved.

I was initially thinking of a semi buried brick bunker in the corner of the garden, but as i rent i was thinking of placing the whole thing in a box trailer in the garden. I could use kingspan to insulate the noise and when i come to move i just hitch it up and drive to the new house and plug it in there.

So the criterea is

silent running
easy to set up and look after
transportable
At least cost neutral ( even if it costs per year what i pay now, at least the utility companies dont get a penny from me)
plug and play system ( park up the trailer and wire straight into the house)
Must be able to run on various fuels.

Its working out the type or power of the genny that is the first requirment.
Then the inverter from the battery bank into the house for night time usage. Its also working out how many in order to meet demand.
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Re: energy bills

Postby treeman » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:53 pm

Electro magnetic generators is what we need to look at to power our dwellings, anybody with any informed insight into this means of power generation would be greatly recieved. I know very little apart from what I have been told verbally.

The ptb are not only forcing us off the roads but they are tightening the noose in our dwellings as well. We have to find a way to survive without their overpriced services.
I'll make no subscription to their paradise.

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Re: energy bills

Postby huntingross » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:01 pm

The pay off for silence is increased back pressure which is resistance to running equals more fuel.....cars are pretty silent at the RPM this would be running.

The sizing of a genny is how well you can spread the load....don't run things at the same time, or at least spread the start-ups over a period if the equipment needs to run together.....

http://www.gillettegenerators.com/sizing/sizing03.html

EM generators has a lot of people working on them, the best idea I have seen on the net, just doesn't work....when I asked a "bod" why this might be he thought it might be the field generated in the magnetic shield....which is why it works on the first flick and stalls.....c'est la vie.
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Re: energy bills

Postby holy vehm » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:11 pm

Just thinking out loud, would it be possible to use the engine out of a diesel car and place that in a housing within the box trailer which will be soundproofed as best i can. Is this likely to be a big job.
Im thinking that a scrap diesel car with a decent engine may only cost a few hundred pound rather than the couple grand a decent genny would cost.
Im not that machanically minded so unsure of how hard it is to remove an engine and site it else where. Does engine size come into it.

Im surprised that an engine could run a house to be honest, i dont know why, its just surprising. If the above is possible to do by me, then the hot water thing is worth doing also, although unsure of how to get the water around the house once the car has heated it. There is only so much i can do to the house as its rented. disconnecting from the mains is no prob but running pipes ect might be.
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Re: energy bills

Postby holy vehm » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:19 pm

If i used the engine, what stops this overheating when its running for 15 hrs a day, is it a case of keeping on top of the coolant ect. Thinking though, i dont want coolant if im to use the engine to heat the water. :thinks:
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Re: energy bills

Postby huntingross » Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:21 pm

As I said in that previous thread, the idea came from a Milton Keynes housing expo in the early 70's where a Fiat 126 engine sat outside the back door in a box.

I think if you got an MOT bodywork failure, mechanically sound....you'd keep the bulkhead, inner wings, front panel and bonnet....that would be the housing....weld an A frame on the back with a tow hitch and take it with you.

Mount the fuel tank on the bulk head....strip the lights and outer wings and anything else not required including the radiator....

Mount the silencer onto the manifold and do away with all the pipes.....

If you are dedicated to doing this "mission" this is pretty easy mechanics work....stick rockwool high density quilt inside the compartment and you just about there.
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