Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Income Tax, Council Tax, National Insurance and VAT issues.

Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby BaldBeardyDude » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:19 pm

Farmerboy wrote:Oh! Something else about the pricing of gold etc. Electronically traded bullion is counted on the same table as the real gold. So the amount being traded is grossly inflated.

So, if the trading in 'paper' gold is brisk then the price becomes volatile. The fact that your gold hasn't moved or been traded doesn't matter. The price is being adjusted by the trading of what is in effect, a different commodity.

Just so's you know.

FB


And if a gold bullion dealer 'bought' gold from a supplier at 200/oz, then the supplier bought it straight back for the same 200/oz, there would be trades showing, but no real trades taking place. Do this a few thousand times and you can 'adjust' prices couldn't you?

I wonder if any people own supply and outlets in the same industry? Hmmm :puzz:
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby gepisar » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:33 pm

Its one of the tell-tale signs of stock-price manipulation: volume increases, but no change in price. i.e. local traders on the "floor" are trying to "fake" the market.
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby BaldBeardyDude » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:36 pm

Seen much recently? :rotfl:

I know people in the states are looking at oil prices with this wrinkle in mind.....I would expect the same manipulation in gold, too.

Add the lightning fast transaction software that was recently 'lost' and you can use the market to make as much as you like, can't you?
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby gepisar » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:03 pm

Arbitrage is a wonderful thing! But is strongly discouraged these days. I remember in the days of Solomon Brothers, the Arb team would run MASSIVE losses, billions of dollars for 10 months of the year, then make it ALL back and some more in the last 2 months! Sometimes it didnt work out. Read about LTCM ("When genius failed") for an insight - what you probably already know!

It never surprises me how fickle the market is. One very good trader once told me: "I've been a careful driver my whole life, ive never had a crash, but ive been through the windshield twice. Both times i wasnt driving, and both times it was an oncoming drunk driver". So, with markets as they are, wear your seat belt, strap in, and make sure you got an airbag!

Re manipulation, I have a wonderful chart of the FTSE100 that I printed out after a fellow trader moved the FTSE100 200 points. It required 450 million of stock purchase on the close on a Friday afternoon. First thing Monday, when its all forgotten, the correction comes with an instant drop of 200 points. Naught naughty! We actually got a call from the exchange about that! Slapped wrists!

As for gold, well, as one of our forum members points out: a brick of gold is worth a brick of gold. Peaked recently at 1100 USD per ounce. Some are saying 1800 by middle of next year. Not bad if you bought back in July at around 900.

As they say, its when you have to find out that gold is tasteless that its true worth becomes apparent!
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby Farmerboy » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:17 pm

Hi Fredqwerty

Interesting point. If I had a cow and today it was worth say, £500, I could sell it for whatever amount I wanted to. £10 or £1000 - the market sets the price and it's between me (the vendor) and the other bugger (the buyer). Tax should be charged at the difference between when I bought it and when I sold it(capital gains tax), sale value (VAT) and what I make (income tax plus NI) - just trying to keep it simple... The tax man has different ideas though. I sold a house for someone and the district valuer came 'round and tried to inflate the price so that they could claim more tax. all negotiable and a complate pain in the arris. so if he (the tax man) does it, then you 'have' to go along with it and keep sthum. However, if you reverse the deal and try to sell it for £100 and then up the falue, they get upset.

In conclusion, I wouldn't like to say. I bet it happens all the time though...

FB
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby gepisar » Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:41 pm

Yup, if you're not buggered in the arse, youre buggered in the arse via the wallet, often more painful! Sob. Its a cruel world!

Maybe you could buy-back an option on the cow if its price went up further whilst simultaneously writing a future to sell to a third party at a lower price, thus locking in profit. Is that a straddle option? Or a butterfly, could never remember!

THEN I could pay you instalments for the benefit of dividends on the locked in profit, thus creating a Credit Derivative Swap...ye ha! See, we can all be bankers! Whhoooo, the world is mine! THE WORLD IS MINE!!!

:wink:
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby Farmerboy » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:13 pm

Gepisar...

Remind me never to go drinking with you...

FB
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby BaldBeardyDude » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:24 pm

Have you read the latest regarding 'gold' bars? - made me laugh for some reason....

http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1258049769.php - the whole sorry story.......

So, with this in mind, my question is....

What price gold, now? :wink:
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby Farmerboy » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:54 pm

It makes you wonder, doesn't it?

I live in two worlds - farming and bullion. I firmly believe in both but find that they are so opposed to each other that then conflict. As processes and beliefs. Normally, the farming wins but those without farms should take steps to secure their own wealth and for that, the best place to be is in bullion. So bullion wins and at the end of the day, I go and check my stock - I get back to farming. We produce our own food. Gold won't feed you but a cow will!

If you believe that every country in the world has vaults stuffed full of gold bars to the extent that it says it has, then you are off your head. That much gold doesn't exist. England doesn't have any anymore - that idiot broon sold it all. The Bank of England may have some but if you add it all up and then add what is traded between individuals, banks and companies every day then you would need a pile of gold about the size of a small planet. It is commonly accepted that you need 7000 tons of ore to make one 400 oz bar of gold. That's a lot.

Interesting link, that.

FB
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Re: Because gold sovereign coins are legal tender

Postby gepisar » Sat Nov 14, 2009 1:37 pm

My Dad has SEEN first hand the gold in the Bank of E. Its there...but how much, well, the armed guard with the sub-machine gun wouldnt let him stop and count it....
Fort Knox is empty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gold_(mined)2.PNG
Interesting that gold wont feed you, cows will, but gold buys cows...doh!
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