Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby Prajna » Sat Sep 01, 2012 9:13 pm

What are they charging you with though, Tom? Surely not breach of the peace? In any case, a magistrates court is not a court of any kind; rather it is an administrative tribunal for the Crown corporation, a bit like a disciplinary hearing at work. A magistrates court is generally presided over by three magistrates - 'justices of the peace', who have no legal training but who are supposed to be upstanding members of the public, your peers - and they are advised by a justices clerk, who does have some legal training. Magistrates courts are not authorised to enforce 'the law' since the only thing that is really considered to be law in this country are those Acts and Statutes that the queen has signed into law; they are her laws. In order for a magistrate to have any power over you there must be joinder and you have to give it to them. Don't think it is easy to deny them joinder though: as soon as you aquiece to their orders you have given them joinder.

I'm pretty sure it works pretty much like that but I don't generally bother with all their fictions and fantasies but I have a very close friend who is a barrister and who explained it to me in a manner very close to that. Sadly, your solicitor won't see it that way; he's part of the deception and perhaps it has never been explained to him in those terms, so that he thinks you are obliged to submit to that process.

Don't rely on the magistrates preferring your evidence to that of the police either: the police and magistrates are on first name terms generally because they are always visiting the magistrates at home, having a cup of tea and gettiing warrants signed. The whole thing is a setup but sadly you need to know in detail how it all works in order to be free of it.

What you can do depends on what kind of 'offence' you are charged with. They come in three flavours: Summary, Indictable, and Either Way. If it is a summary offence then the magis can deal with it themselves and the best thing to do is to simply not engage with them. If it is an Either Way offence then the magis can decide it or can send the case to a crown court - a real court, i.e. a court of record, with (except for terrorism offences and some fraud cases) a jury. Indictable offences have to be tried in a crown court but there will generally be a 'commital hearing' in the magi's court to commit you for trial at crown. With an either way offence you can also elect to go straight to crown (and seriously, although the penalties for losing are greater, you are far more likely to be heard and to have some justice at crown than in the mags).

As usual, these are just a few pointers to help with your own research, offered in the hope that a small summary of my own hazy recollections may be of assistance. Probably there is not a great deal of time for doing your own research before this case is dealt with, so it may help to simply relax and regard this round as a learning experience.

Namaste
FREEDOM Best Before: 11 Sept 2001
http://tomboy-pink.co.uk/ and http://DeclarePeace.org.uk/
User avatar
Prajna
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:51 pm
Location: UK

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby Tom_C » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:12 am

Thanks for the info Prajna. I'll re-read it and formulate a way forward.
The charge is "obstruct/resist a constable in execution of duty" Contrary to Section 89(2) of the Police Act 1996.
I was arrested because I wouldn't give a name or answer questions (exercising my lawful right to silence) and the arresting officer said he wanted to ensure that there would be no breach of the peace.
I don't know what sort of offence this B.S. charge is but the bail sheet says I could be fined, imprisoned or both if I do not "surrender" to the custody of the (kangroo) Magistrates court.
Is that charge a summary offence? If so, what does that mean?
I'm reading quite a bit to get my head round this B.S. legal nonsense.
Been roughed up, strip searched and DNA taken and I'm an innocent Dad. It's utter B.S. and I told them so.
Acting like they do, how are they ever going to get people on side?!? More and more of us simply look at them as ignorant thugs. I'm sure there's a few decent cops out there but not enough.
Thanks for your helpful reply.

Tom
Tom_C
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby pitano1 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:58 am

CONSTABLE=common law
no crime-no obligation for you to give your name.
If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law.
Henry David Thoreau
ALL UNALIENABLE RIGHTS RESERVED -AB INITIO - Without Recourse - Non-Assumpsit
pitano1
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 1:38 pm
Location: on the land

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby Prajna » Sun Sep 02, 2012 7:19 am

Ah, sorry Tom, I should have been more diligent reading your post, you did say it was obstruction for not giving your name. You have no problem; as you say, it is a bullshit charge. The case you need to quote is Rice v. Connolly, [1966] 2 QB 414, [1966] 2 All ER 649, [1966] 3 WLR 17, 130 JP 322, which is an English legal case which illustrates the fact that the public have a right to refuse to answer questions from the police, if they are not under arrest. You cannot obstruct an officer by not cooperating with him and whilst you may (arguably) have a moral duty to assist the police there is no legal duty to do so. Obstruction is one of the hardest cases to prove and, whilst the police threaten people with arrest for obstruction, it is very seldom prosecuted, merely because it is damned difficult to make it stick. If your solicitor isn't saying the same then it is time to sack them.

Here is some (good) info from legal beagles: http://www.freebeagles.org/articles/Legal_Booklet_4/lb4-15.html

They say that obstruction is not even an arrestable offence, though the police do have powers to arrest in order to establish your identity and an address for service of a summons (or to deliver you to the next available magi's court so they can serve you with one).

Step 1 is to go down to the station and request a copy of your custody record - which they are required to give you by the PACE code. Then go through that and make sure they have followed PACE to the letter, i.e. that they told you all your rights under PACE: your right to legal representation, not to be held incommunicado, to have access to a copy of PACE, and provided you with a copy of your rights while detained, etc.

Step 2 is to put in a complaint to the IPCC. They will kick up an almighty fuss with the police force and the most charming senior police officer will be dispached to offer you 'local resolution'. Thank him for being so apologetic and for his obsequetious concern at the way you were treated and decline the local resolution. Then the complaint will be escalated and a neighbouring police force will be called in to investigate your local force, along with all the other hassle I described in my post. Eventually the complaint will be resolved in your favour and you will be awarded enough to retire on from the victim support fund. In addidtion to that your local force will be rather more diligent in following PACE when they arrest others in future, Be aware that this process takes a long time, but sit back and enjoy.

If you're not to far from Chester then grab a copy of your custody record and drop by our camp.

btw, a non-recordable offence means that they are not entitled to your DNA, finger prints etc. They have to destroy them (in your presence if you request) and it is yet another agravating factor, bumping up the payout. Oh, and a summary offence means it is only triable at magi's, you can't opt for it to go to crown.

Namaste
FREEDOM Best Before: 11 Sept 2001
http://tomboy-pink.co.uk/ and http://DeclarePeace.org.uk/
User avatar
Prajna
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:51 pm
Location: UK

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby pitano1 » Sun Sep 02, 2012 8:47 am

If the machine of government is of such a nature that it requires you to be the agent of injustice to another, then, I say, break the law.
Henry David Thoreau
ALL UNALIENABLE RIGHTS RESERVED -AB INITIO - Without Recourse - Non-Assumpsit
pitano1
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 1127
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 1:38 pm
Location: on the land

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby frogmanbrabs » Sun Sep 02, 2012 12:46 pm

You might find this some help Tom. Even though it is based on law in the US it still applies to some extent over here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ4c5atUjsE&list=HL1346589899&feature=mh_lolz
An Open Mind can take you on a journey to anywhere.
User avatar
frogmanbrabs
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:04 pm
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby Tom_C » Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:21 pm

Hi Prajna,

Thanks for the info. I've had a closer look at the paperwork from the police and it is a resist arrest.

The court case is in a few days at Magistrates Court.
I was given a copy of the custody report once the duty solicitor attended the police station. I'm not sure exactly how closely the police followed PACE but I suspect that they may have done most things. I was asked if I wanted to let anyone know I was in the cell and asked if I wanted a copy of the PACE book thing (I didn't go for this as I didn't know what relevance an Act - i.e. a statute would be).

This got me thinking about how the arrest took place. I seem to recall just one police officer doing the arrest in the street and then many arrive and then I was re-arrested in the police station. I don't really understand all this B.S. but seeing as I did not commit any crime or breach the peace I just kept quiet. I thought I would be released without charge. I was a bit annoyed by the whole thing and got some injuries due to the arrest. I wasn't aggressive but I was assertive - I said that I didn't understand or stand under anything. The police officer was unable to put the handcuffs on me and made out that I was resisting arrest. I said, "Seeing as no crime has been committed and there is no breach of the peace, I am going. Am I free to go?" The arresting officer would not let me go, nor would he let me sit on a wall across the road and the usual heavy handed tactics went on, i.e. handcuffed, pushed into a bush, threats of CS gas, laid on the floor, etc. I think they really didn't know what to do so just went over the top. There were about 6 police officers, 3 squad cars and the riot van. (The arresting officer had a camera on so it'll be interesting to see the footage!)
All this nonsense came about because I went to see my child's mother to talk about an issue that arose and because I asked some simple questions that she didn't want to answer she went on the defensive and into full attack/victim mode and phoned the police. Childish but, I've come to realise that I am not dealing with a mature nor emotional stable person sadly...but that is another story.

In your experience, Do you think I have time to pursue the complaint via the IPCC prior to the court case next week?
The solicitor wants to meet me at the court and the first appearance is to make a plea.
With the circumstances of the case being as they are - i.e. no crime - I'm wondering whether I should attend as a freeman and simply challenge jurisdiction or let the solicitor have their say.

I realise that the whole court thing is a game and a deception and I've nothing really to defend as I didn't intend, nor commit any crime so if I am asked about a plea I'll simply say that I am innocent! lol!

I'm on the south coast (Brighton) so not that close to Chester but thanks for the offer to visit the camp!

Regards,

Tom
Last edited by Tom_C on Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tom_C
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby Prajna » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:05 pm

Hi Tom, you certainly won't get very far with an IPCC complaint in the few days before you are 'required' to attend court. It is a long process and isn't intended to address the charge but rather to get your local force to pull their socks up with regard to PACE. Certainly if they treated you the way you described then at least an IPPC complaint is warranted, if not criminal charges for assault.

With regard to your case, your solicitor should already have echoed what I said about obstruction: it is very difficult for them to prove (and of course THEY have to prove it, not you; people forget that it is not the defendant who is being tried, it is the accusations that are being tested, you are presumed innocent until your accusers are proved correct), you have no legal obligation to assist a police officer and Rice v Connolly is the case law you need to quote. If you are not hearing this sort of reassurance from your solicitor then either you are telling him a different story than you tell here or it is time you sacked him and found someone who is competent. Personally, I wouldn't engage one of those vampires anyway; they are not working for you they are working firstly for their own bank balance and pension fund, secondly for the court (your enemy, whether you reaslise it or not), thirdly in the public interest (whatever the fuck that is) and, if you are very lucky, have the right guy and there is an 'm' in the month, he may even do something that will encourage the magis to give you a break. I would, if I condescended to take part in their business, go as litigant in person, deny them jurisdiction and tell them, in my most eloquent legalese to fuck right off.

But maybe you are a little new to all of this to be able to pull it off. If you can find someone who has some experience of doing all this then get them along as a McKensie Friend. If you are found guilty of obstruction, on the info you have given here, then something is badly wrong.

Best of luck with it.

Namaste
FREEDOM Best Before: 11 Sept 2001
http://tomboy-pink.co.uk/ and http://DeclarePeace.org.uk/
User avatar
Prajna
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:51 pm
Location: UK

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby Tom_C » Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:01 pm

Thanks for your views one and all.

Hi Prajna,
To answer your question. It is indeed the truth. The situation is as told.
Most of my friends do not know enough about the legal system or freeman concepts to be able to offer much input. I know a bit about the legal/lawful principles upon which the freeman movement is based but I have yet to test it in a court. I've asked a few people to come along as witnesses but its early morning and most are working so I don't know who will be able to make it.
The solicitor I spoke to seems very cautious and doesn't want to say anything much about the case until the papers have been read. I realise that their loyalties are not to their clients and that clients are seen as "wards of court".

These courts do seem somewhat intimidating places and the hearing is to be held in a basement court room with those police cell type doors. I'm understandably nervous about the process but I'm incredibly cross at the injustice, that I should even be facing any of this nonsense when I could have had my former partner arrested many times over for various abuses but didn't because I was blinded by this thing called love or maybe it was lust...Thankfully I've now woken up.
The important thing is that all this nonsense is sorted out and I'm quite prepared to do whatever is necessary for that to be achieved.
If I do the whole freeman thing I wonder if the court will recognise and respect my lawful right to a fair trial or whether it will make a nothing charge into something more to sort out. My employer will probably want to know the situation.
I have a good job, an amazing child and a mortgage to think about. The bottom line is, if I loose my job it all suffers and the state will get absolutely nothing from me and that is a promise. If justice is done, I will have some respect for the system even though it needs to be changed to one that is lawful.

I've read on this forum that a barrister can be engaged simply to provide legal/lawful advice rather than having a solicitor on board and thus we can then stand as a sovereign citizen representing our PERSON in these courts. I don't know to whom a barrister is loyal but if they will simply provide advice on the processes this seems to me like the way forward.
Tom_C
 
Posts: 17
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:24 pm

Re: Granted bail to appear in Magistrates Court - Help needed.

Postby Prajna » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:49 am

Hi Tom,

sad to say but you will not receive justice in a magistrates court. Period. They do not enforce the law, they enforce corporate policy of the Crown Corporation and that corporate policy, like the policy of any corporation, is to turn a handsome profit for their shareholders. Because it is all consent and contract you don't have to consent and you don't have to contract but they're not going to blow their chance to score a little more profit by admitting that; in fact they will utter all kinds of threats of fines and punishment so as to encourage you to believe you have no way out, as you have already seen from the paperwork they have given you. You can escape it but it requires some real determination and good research to do so, and that is a form of taxation and profit for them in itself.

Your solicitor can obtain advice from a barrister but the way it works is this: you don't employ a barrister, you only get to employ a solicitor. Your solicitor can employ a barrister. A barrister will charge, minimum, £700 per day plus expenses and most things he does will take a day (in billing terms anyway). If he is attending court he starts charging the moment he closes his front door at home and doesn't stop until he opens it again when he gets home. He will charge £150 to read a letter and charges to take a phonecall by the minute. He has paid £7,000 for his wig (a judge can pay £32,000 for his). You can't choose your barrister; he is employed by your solicitor and your solicitor will choose one from the particular chambers he has an arrangement with for a 'cheap' service; any other barrister will charge more (than the normal fortune).

So, you can't have a barrister rather than a solicitor and barristers generally operate in the crown rather than magistrates court. They are also working for themselves rather than you. Their job is to perform stunning theatricals on the stage of the court, scoring points where they can from their oponents with their quick wits and encyclopedic knowledge of the arcane system of 'law' (really a body of clever linguistic arguments). It is all theatre. Don't go.

The sad fact with magistrates court is: you play, you lose. The secret is to learn how not to play. Even in crown court it is really just a chess game between the opposing barristers who are out to outwit each other and very little to do with justice.

I wish I had better news.

Please, please, please do at least persue the IPCC complaint: that way you will be contributing to cleaning up the system and preventing others from being treated as you have. There is no authority for police to assault people, push them into hedges, impose corporate policy on those who don't consent and take the law into their own hands, and it is about time they understood that.

Namaste
FREEDOM Best Before: 11 Sept 2001
http://tomboy-pink.co.uk/ and http://DeclarePeace.org.uk/
User avatar
Prajna
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:51 pm
Location: UK

Previous

Return to The Court System

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests