MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby CormacJones » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:00 pm

Hiya all. Good to be back and have the time to be posting again rather than quickly browsing and rushing off into the world of surviving . This is a follow on from my previous posts
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=2471 regarding my adventures with Pembrokeshire County Council and non payment of unlawful council tax. I hope my latest experiences will offer insight and benefit for any others having similar experiences.

After receiving a new summons I sent in a notice of opportunity to cure fault which was as good as ignored once again and so I reinforced my estoppels. I meet with the council rep at their offices to offer remedy the day before the hearing which turned out to be like banging my head against a brick wall. I’m sure if we had been in a dark alley he would have puts his hands around my throat in an attempt to throttle me though as he was well out of his comfort zone. Again, a total waste of time.

I will summarise as much of the “hearing” I can remember first.

So I turned up for the hearing Friday morning nice and early to catch the clerk or usher to make sure that copies of my notices to the council delivered by hand to the court previously had been received by the clerk and to find out why my notice to the court asking for clarification of why I had received the paperwork/summons had been ignored. I also had a few other questions. There was no usher (obviously P.C.C. didn’t want to pay for one as I explain later) and the clerk refused to talk to me. Now again in hindsight I realise that if there is no usher there is no opportunity to communicate with the magistrates/clerk before the hearing is called and I have no choice but to enter the room if I want to “state my case”

So we sat and waited in the court gallery listening to the three terribly important magistrates exercising their justice on all and sundry most of whom were not present. There was a brief recess before my “hearing” at which time I asked the clerk if my paperwork was with him to be entered into the public record. He told me there is no public record, that only notes are taken and no, he had none of the paperwork I had handed in to the court earlier in the week. I asked if there were any full recordings of the hearing made. Nope. So basically the Council can say whatever they want and unless you have an independent witness there they can lie through their teeth which was the case. Luckily I did have an independent witness there. I gave the clerk copies of all my notices/correspondence with the council.

Now silly me, I thought, knowing the council was in dishonour and that if had an opportunity for my notices to be read out and an opportunity to question good old Andrew(the council rep) in the stand that I would get at least another adjournment. I based this naïve assumption on the hope the clerk and magistrates had a least a little knowledge of law. Of course at the time I did not know that the liability order had already been granted. Silly me, justice, lol!!

So my LP is called into the court room and I state that my common law name is and would they please use it in all future addresses to me and I stand at the back of the room remaining on land. The clerk reads out my notices. The terribly important magistrates have no idea of what they are about. The clerk treats them with total contempt.

Then they ask the council rep to enter the stand and he takes the oath. I ask him one simple question from the back of the room. Do I, commonly known as, of the family have lawful obligation/ reason to pay council tax. He looks very uncomfortable and answers with the usual statute bollox. I say that is not what I am asking and repeat my question and I also ask if he understands the difference between lawful and legal and repeat my question. Now this happens two or three times and he is going very red in the face and he then states under oath that I, commonly known as, of the family, have lawful obligation to pay council tax. Now it’s been a long day the adrenaline is going and my head is pumping. But I know that he’s just lied under oath.

He leaves the stand and they ask me to take the stand which I decline. I also decline to take the oath and state that no one knows whole truth so I couldn’t make that oath. The clerk informs the terribly important magistrates that this is within my rights and they/the clerk asks the council rep if he has any questions for me. No, he obviously has had enough (and as I found out later, knows the liability order has already been granted) and the magistrates go back stage and pretend to confer for a few minutes. They come back, take their seats and surprise, surprise liability order granted. In retrospect I always knew that this would be the outcome and had mulled this over the night before. So I state that I do not understand, is this an order to me to pay money to the council. Yes they say. The council rep is looking at me quizzically. In that case could it please be noted that an order is chargeable and my fee for fulfilling this order will be £100,000. Mr council reps face looks a picture and the clerk very quickly stands up, says this does not concern the magistrates and closes proceedings!!!!

Now if I am honest I have no idea if I have contracted with them during this hearing or could have pressed home an advantage. It’s not been a common occurrence in my lifetime to find myself in these positions. Its one thing to picture it in your head the night before and another thing altogether too actually stand there in “the real.” There are probably other bits that went on in the court that might have had bearing.

So my first thought is to appeal via judicial review but I don’t know how to do this so I go to reception to ask if they will find someone who will help me do this. At this time I am still under the mistaken assumption that I have appeared in court.

I am now going to share a conversation I had with a lovely helpful lady who I originaly hoped would explain how to go about a judicial review. If I had known this knowledge before hand my approach would have been very different but it’s a learning experience.

1) I had not been summonsed to appear in court. Pembrokeshire County Council hires a court room once a month for their own private hearings/kangaroo court. They are nothing to do with Haverfordwest Magistrates Court. There was no point in noticing the court or handing them paperwork as it wasn’t their business. Sure looks like a summons to court though. This explains why none of the paperwork I had handed to the court manager previously had been passed onto the clerk and my notice for clarification of paperwork ignored. It had not come from them in the first place.

2) They (P.C.C.) make an application for x amount of liability orders each month which are granted in advance by the chief clerk who deals with all the South West Wales courts. In other words it is now my understanding that the liability order on me was already granted whatever took place at the hearing. There’s justice for you.

So, as I see it I have a few approaches open to me.

1) When I receive the order to pay I inform them by notice that an order is chargeable and if they persist in their order I pay the council and then hit them with a bill(£100,000 is about right I feel!!) for fulfilling their order.
2) Obviously the council rep has lied under oath. I appeal via the Judicial Review Service. Has anybody had any experience of this process and could perhaps give me some pointers.
3) From my above summery can anybody perhaps see another plan of action?

I hope this account will be of use to fellow human beings enduring this bollox, love and light, Cormac :sun:
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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby joefree » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:26 pm

Hi Cormac

Brilliant job - as you say it's one thing to imagine what it's like and quite another to actually stand in court and speak. Thanks for all the information which i think really highlights what we are up against.

When i hear that they have already passed judgement and that the whole PCC court is a farce it makes my blood boil.......

Anyway, keep up the good work and keep us posted.

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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby gepisar » Tue Oct 06, 2009 1:14 pm

Just wanna say a MASSIVE thanks for sharing this. I think youve demonstrated gumption!

CormacJones wrote: I hope my latest experiences will offer insight and benefit for any others having similar experiences.

After receiving a new summons I sent in a notice of opportunity to cure fault which was as good as ignored once again and so I reinforced my estoppels. I meet with the council rep at their offices to offer remedy the day before the hearing which turned out to be like banging my head against a brick wall. I’m sure if we had been in a dark alley he would have puts his hands around my throat in an attempt to throttle me though as he was well out of his comfort zone. Again, a total waste of time.


Had these been notorised?

So I turned up for the hearing Friday morning nice and early to catch the clerk or usher to make sure that copies of my notices to the council delivered by hand to the court previously had been received by the clerk and to find out why my notice to the court asking for clarification of why I had received the paperwork/summons had been ignored.

Good point, since at this stage you haven't exhausted your administrative remedy.

He told me there is no public record

Why is that? Whats the implications? Is it because this was a PRIVATE hearing, in a hired court? Its so fkn devious!

Luckily I did have an independent witness there

Good point to note!

Of course at the time I did not know that the liability order had already been granted. Silly me, justice, lol!!
This seems to have missed out a step? You had no chance to challenge this before it was granted. Does that mean you were not given "due course" to rebut the reasons on which the order was given. Do you have due course in a private hearing? This really does sound like a Kangaroo court.

... and he then states under oath that I, commonly known as, of the family, have lawful obligation to pay council tax. Now it’s been a long day the adrenaline is going and my head is pumping. But I know that he’s just lied under oath.
Did you ask him to state which law that was? Too much adrenaline to ask? See note #1 later.

(and as I found out later, knows the liability order has already been granted)

So you're guilty - why were you even summoned to court then?

So I state that I do not understand, is this an order to me (which "me" were THEY referring too to pay money to the council. Yes they say.


In that case could it please be noted that an order is chargeable and my fee for fulfilling this order will be £100,000.
Mr council reps face looks a picture and the clerk very quickly stands up, says this does not concern the magistrates and closes proceedings!!!!

Maybe so, BUT did anyone counter notice your conditional acceptance of their offer?

Now if I am honest I have no idea if I have contracted with them during this hearing or could have pressed home an advantage.
I assume so...them being who? The court or the council. I note that the magistrates excused himself of that liability!


1) I had not been summonsed to appear in court. Pembrokeshire County Council hires a court room once a month for their own private hearings/kangaroo court. They are nothing to do with Haverfordwest Magistrates Court. There was no point in noticing the court or handing them paperwork as it wasn’t their business. Sure looks like a summons to court though. This explains why none of the paperwork I had handed to the court manager previously had been passed onto the clerk and my notice for clarification of paperwork ignored. It had not come from them in the first place.
Was there a Judge present? Perhaps next time get him on his oath.

2) They (P.C.C.) make an application for x amount of liability orders each month which are granted in advance by the chief clerk who deals with all the South West Wales courts. In other words it is now my understanding that the liability order on me was already granted whatever took place at the hearing. There’s justice for you.


#1 - not sure if you can appeal, but youve got him on the record. Perhaps at a proper trial you can get him back on the stand.
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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby MikeThomas » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:11 pm

Well done for taking a stand Cormac :clap:

What's truely unbelievable about this is that they think you've had a fair hearing! It's so corrupt isn't it ! I've always maintained that if the council 'book' the court, then how can the court be impartial?

Fight the good fight mate :yes:
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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby Phil: C » Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:21 pm

Brilliantly well done Cormac - if I had a hat on i'd take it off to you! :clap:
You're a trail blazer and an inspiration! :cheer:
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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby Farmer » Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:14 pm

Thank you for this summery and information. I think this shows that although too late for you, the first question should be towards the court and is whether the order has already been given and signed.

If it is possible to appeal in front of a judge, what kind of court would that be if this was just a kangaroo court? If it is a kangaroo court then it must be private; so when the order is announced then it should be possible to say that you do not accept/reject the order which is the opposite to saying that you will charge them £100,000.
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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby gepisar » Tue Oct 06, 2009 4:22 pm

MikeThomas wrote:Well done for taking a stand Cormac :clap:

What's truely unbelievable about this is that they think you've had a fair hearing! It's so corrupt isn't it ! I've always maintained that if the council 'book' the court, then how can the court be impartial?

Fight the good fight mate :yes:


I heard winston shrout say that if you get the judge to enter his oath on the record, then he has to act neutrally.
Interestingly he also says whoever give tesimony is the debtor in that relationship.

So, start like this:

Do it open court- ask judge "Do you have oath of office?"
[yes]

"Is it in the court today"
[no]

"You do say you have one"
[yes]

(Getting Judge to testify)

Have the oath entered as judiscial evidence.

JUDGE IS NOW NEUTRAL.

BUSTED THE TRUST of the NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENT

Look up Lavitical and Melchizedek judges

Also:

Court has two side: PUBLIC and PRIVATE

Whats in the clerks file is in the public side and whats in judges file is in the private side

When putting things into the public side, it is NOT evidence. Needs to go in to the judges file.

Banker has licence to do conversion from private to public. So does judge.

BUT judge must give other party due process to rebutt affidavidt, if you dont, it cant go into evidence. (FACT = agreed evidence. If you provide affidavit, and the other side has due process and DOES NOT rebut, then it IS an established FACT)

It stays in the public until you do!

Court cant SEE it until you do, i.e.the court wont injur the other party (by being prejudicial)

He also says:
"NEVER go to court until you have settled ALL the issues. Take the law and the FACTS with you"

Agreement of the parties is the Law of the contract. Agreement = facts. Easiest way to get into agreement: accept offer for value. Whoever creates the liability has to provide the remedy.Accept it, return it for settlement.
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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby CormacJones » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:24 pm

Many thanks all for the positve replies. My heads swiimming a bit at the moment with a seasonal lurgy so Im finding it hard to focus. I will try to answer some of the points raised.

gesipar you asked

Had these been notorised?


The estoppels had been signed and dated by three independant witnesses

Why is that? Whats the implications? Is it because this was a PRIVATE hearing, in a hired court? Its so fkn devious!


Without doubt it was a private hearing. I was not in "court"

In that case could it please be noted that an order is chargeable and my fee for fulfilling this order will be £100,000.
Mr council reps face looks a picture and the clerk very quickly stands up, says this does not concern the magistrates and closes proceedings!!!!


Maybe so, BUT did anyone counter notice your conditional acceptance of their offer?


Nope. I think this is the road I will go down next once P.C.C. have dealt the next hand.

With the Winston Shrout option. I had also asked the clerk in the recess bit if the magistrates had taken an oath. He said yes. I asked that if I asked them to state it for the record would they. He said they had no to need to as they had taken/stated the oath when first sworn in as magistrates or something along those lines. This was part of a very rushed part of proceedings and I very much wanted to make sure my paperwork was with him as he had very over dramatically held up an empty file when I asked if he had received it. Again maybe I should have pressed more but it was all a bit panicky on my part at this time.

He also says:
"NEVER go to court until you have settled ALL the issues. Take the law and the FACTS with you"

I dont beleive I was in a "court"

I need to catch up with my mate who was with me as he had to rush off after the farce. He might remember other parts more clearly.

It seems that judicial reveiw is not an option then??
Would again be very interested to hear from anybody who has knowledge/experiance of this option. Found some bumf and read through.

http://www.elc.org.uk/pages/lawukjudicial%20review.htm
Help with Law
If you are unhappy with the decision of a public body you may be able to challenge the decision by taking judicial review proceedings in the High Court.

Can the decision of any public body be challenged?
Judicial review can be applied for in relation to any public body, including government departments, local authorities, the police and any organisation exercising a public function.

On what grounds can decisions be challenged?
The grounds for such cases will usually be that the body acted illegally or irrationally or that the decision was reached unfairly because of a defect in the procedure which led to the decision.

What remedies are available?
The usual remedy if a case succeeds is that the public body will be ordered by the court to reconsider or change its decision. Damages may also be available in certain circumstances.

But it seems I would need to enter the world of "legal advice" to do this.

Need to stop now as me heads swimming. Many thanks again for the fantastic support,Love and Light, Cormac. :sun:
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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby kevin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:51 pm

1) I had not been summonsed to appear in court. Pembrokeshire County Council hires a court room once a month for their own private hearings/kangaroo court. They are nothing to do with Haverfordwest Magistrates Court. There was no point in noticing the court or handing them paperwork as it wasn’t their business. Sure looks like a summons to court though. This explains why none of the paperwork I had handed to the court manager previously had been passed onto the clerk and my notice for clarification of paperwork ignored. It had not come from them in the first place.


now if that is proved that's very interesting!!

Good work and well done, my hat goes off to you :shake:
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Re: MY AFTERNOON IN "COURT"

Postby huntingross » Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:19 pm

I'd just like to add my well done to all the others....it takes courage to walk into their arena.

I would press the perjury aspect as well as your fee....make the council start shitting bricks....they may not have taken you to court....but you sure can take them there.

Get yours and your friends statements in regard to his perjury into an affidavit each and get a solicitor to witness them....and get those into the council together with a Notice informing them (him) of the fact that you will start proceedings against him and the council, jointly and severally.

good luck
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