Bills of Exchange

Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby Happydancer » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:39 pm

Hi, great work being done on this subject HG.
It's way over my head at the moment. Can't wait until the penny drops.
I've been reding a book lately, "English Law" by Denis Keenan. This is
an excerpt from it
Bills of exchange 4.jpg
Bills of exchange 3.jpg

Does this help anyone in any way?
I can't grasp this either at the moment. :blush:
Peace 'n' love.
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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby huntingross » Wed Jun 10, 2009 10:52 pm

Hi Happy, yes it all makes sense, these are negotiable documents unless they are crossed as non negotiable or endorsed in some other way....account payee only....etc.

You'll start reading about 'holder' and 'holder in due course' soon.
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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby huntingross » Thu Jun 11, 2009 11:28 pm

A Story

41(1) A bill is duly presented for acceptance when it's delivered through the post

17(1) Signing an un-qualified acceptance by the drawee is assent to the order of the drawer, and is invalid without a signature

42 When a bill is duly presented for acceptance and is not accepted within the customary time, the person presenting it (payee/holder) must treat it as dishonoured by non-acceptance. If he does not the holder shall lose his right of recourse against the drawer

43(2) When a bill is dishonoured by non-acceptance, an immediate right of recourse against the drawer accrues to the holder

48 When a bill has been dishonoured by non-acceptance, a notice of dishonour must be given to the drawer

49 Notice of dishonour must be given by or on behalf of the holder

55(1) The drawer of a bill by drawing it (a) engages that on due presentment it shall be accepted and paid, and that if it be dishonoured he will compensate the holder, provided the requisite proceedings on dishonour be duly taken

57 Where a bill is dishonoured, the measure of damages, which shall be deemed to be liquidated damages, shall be as follows: (1) The holder may recover from any party liable on the bill, and the drawer who has been compelled to pay the bill may recover from the acceptor, and an indorser who has been compelled to pay the bill may recover from the acceptor or from the drawer, or from a prior indorser (a) The amount of the bill

92 Where, by this Act, the time limited for doing any act or thing is less than three days, in reckoning time, non-business days are excluded.
“Non-business days” for the purposes of this Act mean—
(a) Saturday, Sunday, Good Friday, Christmas Day:
(b) A bank holiday under Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971:
(c) A day appointed by Royal proclamation as a public fast or thanksgiving day.
(d) A day declared by an order under section 2 of the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 to be a non-business day.
Any other day is a business day.


So we recieve a Bill through the post, but we don't accept it (don't sign it) within the given time, the person presenting it (payee/holder) must treat it as dishonoured by non-acceptance, an immediate right of recourse against the drawer accrues to the holder, a notice of dishonour must be given to the drawer by or on behalf of the holder. The difference between 42 and 43 I take to mean "less than 3 days" otherwise recourse against the drawer is lost

The drawer of the Bill when drawing it, engaged that on presentment it shall be accepted and paid and that if it be dishonoured he will compensate the holder (provided the requisite proceedings on dishonour be duly taken)

The payee/holder may recover from all liable parties, and the drawer may recover from the acceptor, but we didn't accept it !!.....and if push came to shove send proof that the requisite proceedings on dishonour were taken.

Now it seems to me that in playing their devious game, that being both drawer and payee, they highlight that they are the debtor on the account. The drawer is usually the debtor in the Bill, and this seems to bear that out.

A question for you as you read this, knowing what constitutes a Bill of Exchange now....when was the last time you signed one to accept it....an essential element in the process....the acceptance is invalid without it.
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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby huntingross » Sat Jun 13, 2009 1:19 am

I feel the need to write to one of these Bill issuing lot and make a few points, all referenced to the BoE and see what they say....It is also another excuse to air my User Agreement...and my points are along the lines : (BoE references will be added later)

Dear Bill Issuing Lot

1. You draft a Bill and
2. Address it to me and
3. You state that payment is due, and as such, imply you are the payee

The requisites of a Bill are that the drawee and payee are named or otherwise indicated therein with reasonable certainty. It must also be signed by the drawer and is not a compliant instrument without it and is not a Bill of Exchange.

A Bill is a Statement together with an Order to pay, the giro credit slip does not form part of your Offer for acceptance. The Bill is therefore deficient as it does not indicate with any certainty who the payee is nor is it signed by the drawer, that'll be you.

I could assume you are the payee/holder issuing it to me by post for acceptance as drawee, OR, I can assume I am the holder in due course and therefore payable to bearer.

I can make this assumption because the Bill is wanting in material particulars, and you have given me authority to complete the Bill which I may do "in any way he thinks fit".

Assuming you are the payee/holder :

If I don't accept the Bill within the given time, the person presenting it, that'll be you then, MUST treat this as dishonoured by non-acceptance.

You have an immediate recourse against the drawer, that'll be you then, and you must issue a Notice of Dishonour to the drawer, you again.

When you drew the Bill you engaged that on presentment that it would be accepted and paid, and if it should be dishonoured, you will compensate the holder, that'll be you then, providing the requisite proceeding on dishonour be duly taken. This is a bold move by you, how could you make such an engagement, are we under contract ?

The holder can recover from any liable party, and the drawer can recover from the acceptor. In both cases that can't be me then, because the Bill was dishonoured by non-acceptance.

I am struck by the fact that all indications point to the fact that you are the debtor on this account and remedy for non acceptance lies between you as drawer and you as payee/holder to the Bill.

Your Bill is a "fishing trip" seeking a remedy by targeting me, and hoping that I would unconditionally accept your offer.

Unfortunately for you, I did not accept you offer to contract and therefore am not liable on the Bill, and it is non compliant without your signature, unless you're willing to attest that the printed company logo is the company seal, and

You will need to demonstrate there is an antecedent agreement between us, as there is no legitimate contract currently on the table, and you'll need to provide a copy of the Notice of Dishonour so that I can see the requisite action was taken.


I don't see the point in making a conditional offer to maintain honour in this scenario, as the scenario is based on dishonouring the Bill...and its written as a question before non-acceptance occurs.
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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby huntingross » Sat Jun 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Here's another approach to Bills :

They are an "unconditional order in writing" [3(1)]

A conditional acceptance of the order could be - "pay my fee schedule to process the order"

And another thing that has been at the back of my mind, why is it taxed, it's a bill of EXCHANGE, and I thought exchange was exempt of tax....This thought isn't based on research so could be utterly wrong.

And....another definition of a BoE....this extends to define what it is when it is signed by the drawee/acceptor :

Written, unconditional order by one party (the drawer) to another (the drawee) to pay a certain sum, either immediately (the sight bill) or on a fixed date (the term bill), for payment of goods and/or services received. The drawee accepts the bill by signing it, thus converting it into a post-dated check and a binding contract. It is also called a draft but, while all drafts are negotiable instruments, only 'to order' bills of exchange can be negotiated. According to the 1930 'Convention Providing A Uniform Law For Bills of Exchange and Promissory Notes' held in Geneva (also called Geneva Convention)


If every Bill is a contract with the issuer, what did the original contract say that we supposedly signed up to ?
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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby huntingross » Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:51 pm

S57 (1) - The holder may recover from any party liable on the bill, and the drawer who has been compelled to pay the bill may recover from the acceptor.

S23 - No person is liable as drawer, indorser, or acceptor of a bill who has not signed it as such (so unless you sign it you have no liability as an acceptor)

The drawee on a Bill is the PERSON, which makes the human the acceptor (acceptee), and we are the surety for the PERSON.

So by not signing our acceptance we are not liable as acceptor, the drawer can only come after the acceptor (there was no acceptor)...so the trail finishes there In My Opinion.
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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby nameless » Thu May 06, 2010 7:56 pm

Just re-reading some earlier posts about bills of exchange and came across this one by huntingross. Did you ever send this to one of the Bill issuing lot? If so, was there a reply? I have found all your postings on this subject very helpful. Thank you.



huntingross wrote:I feel the need to write to one of these Bill issuing lot and make a few points, all referenced to the BoE and see what they say....It is also another excuse to air my User Agreement...and my points are along the lines : (BoE references will be added later)

Dear Bill Issuing Lot

1. You draft a Bill and
2. Address it to me and
3. You state that payment is due, and as such, imply you are the payee

The requisites of a Bill are that the drawee and payee are named or otherwise indicated therein with reasonable certainty. It must also be signed by the drawer and is not a compliant instrument without it and is not a Bill of Exchange.

A Bill is a Statement together with an Order to pay, the giro credit slip does not form part of your Offer for acceptance. The Bill is therefore deficient as it does not indicate with any certainty who the payee is nor is it signed by the drawer, that'll be you.

I could assume you are the payee/holder issuing it to me by post for acceptance as drawee, OR, I can assume I am the holder in due course and therefore payable to bearer.

I can make this assumption because the Bill is wanting in material particulars, and you have given me authority to complete the Bill which I may do "in any way he thinks fit".

Assuming you are the payee/holder :

If I don't accept the Bill within the given time, the person presenting it, that'll be you then, MUST treat this as dishonoured by non-acceptance.

You have an immediate recourse against the drawer, that'll be you then, and you must issue a Notice of Dishonour to the drawer, you again.

When you drew the Bill you engaged that on presentment that it would be accepted and paid, and if it should be dishonoured, you will compensate the holder, that'll be you then, providing the requisite proceeding on dishonour be duly taken. This is a bold move by you, how could you make such an engagement, are we under contract ?

The holder can recover from any liable party, and the drawer can recover from the acceptor. In both cases that can't be me then, because the Bill was dishonoured by non-acceptance.

I am struck by the fact that all indications point to the fact that you are the debtor on this account and remedy for non acceptance lies between you as drawer and you as payee/holder to the Bill.

Your Bill is a "fishing trip" seeking a remedy by targeting me, and hoping that I would unconditionally accept your offer.

Unfortunately for you, I did not accept you offer to contract and therefore am not liable on the Bill, and it is non compliant without your signature, unless you're willing to attest that the printed company logo is the company seal, and

You will need to demonstrate there is an antecedent agreement between us, as there is no legitimate contract currently on the table, and you'll need to provide a copy of the Notice of Dishonour so that I can see the requisite action was taken.


I don't see the point in making a conditional offer to maintain honour in this scenario, as the scenario is based on dishonouring the Bill...and its written as a question before non-acceptance occurs.
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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby huntingross » Thu May 06, 2010 9:42 pm

Hi nameless

That is very weird....the night before last I was juggling this in my head as a thing I didn't get to do.

I want to do this to BT, as they actually call their paperwork a BILL.

I picture this in my head as a series of short letters, extracting a little more info from them each time rather than the post you have quoted which puts the whole picture on the page in one go....therefore they can see where you're going before you get there....and giving them the opportunity to do some fancy footwork to move out the way or simply refuse to engage.

As far as I see it, it is faultless, the Act is very clear what is required to happen by who and how and when....so moving the blocks into place one by one is now my preferred route.
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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby Free » Thu May 13, 2010 1:56 am

A Bill of exchange is an unconditional promise to pay. We dont actually 'pay', we're just putting off the obligation to some indeterminate point in the future when there might be money again whereupon all our obligations will hit us at once. Not that I can see that ever coming but..I'm rather favouring A4V as the remedy for the now.

I started sending A4V's several months ago and I'll continue to send them come what may. I will no longer be using 'legal tender' to pay utilities or any other obligations I might owe if I can use a remedy. If a remedy is in place for us to use then I'm using it.

A bill, statement, invoice, demand for payment etc is an asset. It is money which we created in advance when we used the service or utility or whatever it was that created the Bill. It's our asset. All we need to do to convert the asset into a payment is accept it.

An obligation comes in many forms. A bill is an obligation. A statement is an obligation. A Bank of England note is an obligation. So if we pay using bank notes (or any other form of bank transfer) all we're doing is moving the obligation to a new venue. Instead of accepting our obligation we're giving it to the Gov. Bank notes are debt notes, an obligation. So we're paying an obligation with another obligation and expecting the Gov to pick up the tab. What we've done is expected the Gov to be responsible for our obligations. The Gov is good for the debt, of course, as every commercial venue accepts that the gov is good for its debts. However the more we use borrowed debt notes the higher the payments on the interest. So I believe it is for us to stop passing the debt to the gov, and take responsibility ourselves.

"He who creates the liability must bring the remedy"

Since the Crown took possession of all the property and all the money and put us in bankruptcy it was compelled to give us something in return with which to pay. And it did. All we needed to do is provide our labour in return for the remedy provided. However the public schooling system teaches us how to be debtors, not creditors, and the remedy slipped into oblivion as nobody claimed it. And we continue to shift the venue of obligation over and over and the whole worlds monetary structure blows up like a balloon.

The remedy is the bill, or the demand, or the statement or invoice or whatever it is that drops through the door. These documents rarely ever show numbers in the minus. It follows that what we've been sent is an asset. It is money, waiting to be accepted by us. On the bottom of the bill we find a 'remittance slip'. The word 'remittance' means 'payment'. The remittance slip IS payment.

In order to get the payment into the correct venue, we need to send the demand which we accepted to the office which deals with instruments and moves them from the private to the public venue and vice-versa. This is the Inland Re-Venue service. Most will know it as the Inland Revenue. Interesting how breaking up the words gives us a completely different perspective on how things really work..

In using this method, we use less debt notes from the private lenders, thus create less interest owed back to those private lenders. In a utopic world we all use our own remedy and nobody uses debt notes. the National debt vanishes and the system which was designed to work for us all now works as it should.

In order to bring down the national debt, we cannot expect our government to perform. It's still stuck in the belief that debt notes are real and will keep on borrowing and borrowing till the whole thing gets out of control and the debt is called in (property seized). The way forward is for us to take responsibilty for our debt, which we created. And the irony is, that it wont cost us a penny.

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Re: Bills of Exchange

Postby nameless » Thu May 13, 2010 8:46 pm

Many thanks for your posting Free.

I am always interested in people doing AFV as we have been active with these as well for three utilities and several credit cards, oh, I nearly forgot, HMRC!

What levels of success have you had? I ask this because even failures are successes, as it's all part of the learning curve.
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