The meaning of meaning

Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby ArturoDekko » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:54 pm

then you are the creator......It wasn't me guv, honest! :saint: [/quote]
:rotfl: :giggle: :clap:
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby Phil: C » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:56 pm

AD wrote: “No deliberate confusion or exclusion intended, just my failure to express clearly,” Not at all, the problem is mine, though I share it with many others.
The Egyptian god Thoth was believed to have invented writing, but his father, Ammon, lamented this, fearing that it would replace living memory and interfere with proper thought.

Could each dimensional axis be thought of simply as an attribute?

AD wrote: “I do come under the sign of Arachni in the 13 sign zodiac…” :thinks: I’ve no interest in astrology but even I know there are only12 signs. :puzz:
AD, you described the Universe as “One Song.” This beautiful, concise phrase appeals to me greatly as a musician (strictly amateur) and I thank you for it.
AD wrote: “meagre bumblings.” Hardly that!

I have a feeling that we are both trying to express the same thing, me in my lazyman way and you in your analytical way. I think of it as trying to eff the ineffable! :giggle:

Phil.
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby ArturoDekko » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:53 pm

Aravat -
AD wrote: “No deliberate confusion or exclusion intended, just my failure to express clearly,” Not at all, the problem is mine, though I share it with many others.
The Egyptian god Thoth was believed to have invented writing, but his father, Ammon, lamented this, fearing that it would replace living memory and interfere with proper thought.

I could make a good argument that it was the accountants that invented writing. Will expand if you want.
I could have some fun and talk in the language of the logics themselves but that would be deliberate obfuscation. Such as the breath of creation would be Bairzhorngoship which sure as onions is not going to make any sense to anyone else but me, although it does give me an entire language I could babble to the police in that they would NOT be able to translate :thinks:
Could each dimensional axis be thought of simply as an attribute?

By George I think he has got it :clap:
AD wrote: “I do come under the sign of Arachni in the 13 sign zodiac…” I’ve no interest in astrology but even I know there are only12 signs.

There have been many calendars. 13 moons to the year = 13 signs. Magical, Druidic, Pre-roman understanding. Abolished by Romans. Sure there is plenty of stuff about but if you are not interested, no point in telling. Suffice to say a whole understanding and way of being was crucified by Rome not just a messiah. Will start a thread on this if anyone wants.
AD, you described the Universe as “One Song.” This beautiful, concise phrase appeals to me greatly as a musician (strictly amateur) and I thank you for it.

Arachni is the sign of the musician! :grin: What do you play?
The word verse is quite interesting and comes from the same root as furrow where the soil is di-verged. All related to straight lines. Verse = line of poem. verge = straight edge to road. Verger = rod carrier. Virgin = un-rodded, un=ploughed furrow. I digress, as usual.

Meagre bumblings? I feel that I know something that I am not worthy of, that the knowledge I have is far greater than me and that my poor efforts to express it do not do it justice. Then another part says this is what I was designed for so just get on and do it and then I question my sanity and judge my ego and all the while feel like a fish caught on the line of truth, wriggling to get away but all the time coming back to the one place, the beginning that is the end, the one that is the all the something that is nothing and it is all caught up in this one moment NOW that is all there is. Rant over. First day without nicotine. Proud of myself. :clap:

I have a feeling that we are both trying to express the same thing, me in my lazyman way and you in your analytical way. I think of it as trying to eff the ineffable!

Yes, I believe we are trying to say the same thing. In my analytical AND analogical way I believe I have crystalised the understanding to such a degree that the very essence of meaning is held within the structure I hope to build in your minds.

AD :saint:
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby Phil: C » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:29 pm

AD: “I could make a good argument that it was the accountants that invented writing. Will expand if you want.” I imagine that writing evolved over a period of time, but I think Sumerian cuneiform script is recognised as the earliest true form of it? My point was really about how language is not always helpful in conveying meaning.

I’m amazed that Arachni is the sign of the musician! Never come across this before. I’m learning to play the trombone (well someone has to :giggle: ) and I sing in a choir. I’m also trying to get to grips with Sibelius (music software) with the aim of writing arrangements. I was wrong to say that I’m not interested in astrology – I should have said horoscopes. Given that the Sun, the planetary bodies and human beings all have an electrical aspect to their nature it seems obvious that we would be affected by them.

Congratulations on a day without nicotine. Well done mate :8-):. Wish I could give up sugar! Tate & Lyle turned millions of us into addicts by doing a brilliant job of marketing it as food in the post-war post-rationing days of my yoof! :grr: Bastards.

Imho if you were not worthy of or are incapable of fulfilling the task you have been given you would not have been given it! You said yourself that certain aspects of your intelligence are beyond testing. But have you asked yourself if success is necessary, or is it enough merely to try earnestly? Perhaps it’s the journey that’s important.

:yawn: Time for bed methinks.

Phil.
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby ArturoDekko » Mon Sep 07, 2009 12:14 am

Aravat - Might cover developement of writing some other time. Take your point on meaning though.
Zodiacs? 13 = moon, receptive, mother. 12 = sun, creative, father.

What inspired you to become a 'bone merchant? 'Twas the passion of my yoof, orchestral, dance, jazz, brass, military, till I lost my embrouchure (bells palsy not carelessness). Now I play one of these - http://www.venusharps.com/classic-big.htm - in mahogany - more etherial than intestinal :rotfl:

Thanks for the wise words on remembering it is the path that is important, I needed that through my drug deprived haze :clap:

Back to the plot tomorrow.

AD :saint:
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby jobsaboba » Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:36 am

ArturoDekko wrote:
jobsaboba wrote:nice call aravat......

if there is only you....... really everything is you..

then you are the creator......

who on earth would believe that, after all...... how could that be ?

kinda thing lol

regards

jobs


We are like twigs on a tree, each seeing the other twigs as different and separate but if we project our consciousness along the branch towards the trunk, we realise that there is only one tree and that we are all part of it. We are but different perspectives of the one creator inspecting itself.

AD :saint:


Agreed.... and a step further... that the nourishment / energy that gives life to the tree is the earth / dirt / dust...
re-incarnation becomes a little easier to comprehend.

Ashes to Ashes, Done n dusted...ETC

We are less than we think we are ( EGO )....... And more than we can imagine we will ever be ( HUMILITY )

NB Your comment that you feel unworthy of such knowledge, fills my heart with joy.

Regards

Jobs
I am not wise......I am otherwise !

its not my banking system... and i dont take credit for it !!
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby ArturoDekko » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:17 pm

Hi Jobs.
We are less than we think we are ( EGO )....... And more than we can imagine we will ever be ( HUMILITY )
Like that.

Here's more for you gluttons for punishment

The five mono-polar logics that are discussed in this section are as labelled on a previous chart, 0a, 0b, 0c, 0d, 0e as the first row of a 5x5 grid.

Those not familiar with Chinese philosophy may not find the following useful but I include it as it was integral in the development of my understanding.
Bearing in mind that everything changes in perspective, my view of the five elements is similar but different to the traditional Chinese view and the correspondence of the five mono-polar logics is thus:
0a = the element Earth creating itself.
0b = the element Earth creating Fire.
0c = the element Earth creating Wood.
0d = the element Earth creating Water.
0e = the element Earth creating Metal

In a view similar to the I Ching, trigram, fen shui, type view of the Early Heaven and Later Heaven energies, I find it useful to imagine energy, or some equivalent of, passing from the un-manifest to the manifest. The numerals, 0,1,2,3,4 represent the un-manifest and the Letters a,b,c,d,e represent the manifest. The breath of creation represents the un-manifest becoming manifest and then returning to the un-manifest.

We can see the five logics 0a, 0b, 0c, 0d, 0e as the creative, out-going, expansive, active, yang and these are balanced by five inverse logics e0, b0, c0, d0, e0 which can be seen as receptive, in-coming, contractive, passive, yin. So:
a0 = the element Earth receiving itself.
b0 = the element Earth receiving Fire.
c0 = the element Earth receiving Wood.
d0 = the element Earth receiving Water.
e0 = the element Earth receiving Metal.

Seen in human terms:
(0, a) are the physical components of our bodies, the actual chemicals, minerals of which we are composed. (Earth)
(1, b) are the vital components of our bodies, our energies and the passage of energy, information through the nervous system. (Fire)
(2, c) are the structures and organisations of our bodies most typified by the mind and our thoughts. (Wood)
(3, d) are the fluids and resonances of our bodies, our feelings and emotions. (Water)
(4, e) are the blueprint and accumulated experience of our bodies, our spirit and soul. (Metal)

As seen in the Early and Later heaven arrangements of the trigrams into bagua, the arrangement of energies are changed as the pass from manifest to un-manifest and back. Rather like seeing an image in a mirror in which it is reversed. My "mirror" acts more like a pinhole camera in that the image is reversed not only left to right but also top to bottom. Imagine the two, manifest and un-manifest 5x5 grids as opposite sides of a cube. The middle of the cube is the neutral balance point, the pin-hole, and the image of the grid is reflected and inverted on the other side so that 0a is opposite e4 and 4e is opposite a0. Any event can be seen then as the circular movement of a point within this abstract logical space.

All this will come clearer as we go. Where we are going is really just there right in front of you, you could reach out and touch it right now if you could but see it, however it has the illusion of being very far away. What I have been doing up to now is pointing at the distant scenery, saying, look at that over there, that is part of where we are going, that is a component of our journey, look at the wonderful view, but we have not yet gone anywhere and even when we have walked a long way we will still only be back at the beginning but we will finally know that the beginning is the end and that there is no where to go except right here, right now, this one moment. :cheer:

The first step. A = A is the symbolic representation of existence, manifestation labelled 0A on the grid. This is the beginning from which all else is but an un-folding. We know something exists. We experience something. Let us not define it as yet, let it exist with no attributes, no dimensions, spacial or otherwise. As it has no attributes, we can think of it as a single point of zero dimensions, the zero point.
By no dimensions, I am also including zero time, so the point flicks into existence and vanishes again. This does not seem much to go on but the complexity of all experience is crystalised in this one moment, it is the one-ness that gives rise to all.

A letter (e.g. A) in this system of symbolism refers to anything that could be represented as a single point on a mathematical graph. Any object, idea, anything that can be named, can be pointed to, can be experienced. So. A = A means a thing is itself, that is, it exists as its own thing. A = A can be read as "That is a table", "I am Me". Also implied in this is that ONLY A = A, that is "A" is unique, there is only one "A", one existence, it does not occur anywhere else, nothing else can be it.

Now ask yourself where you put this one point of existence? I bet you put it somewhere. Maybe just in space in front of you in the room, maybe in the un-manifest void, maybe as a tiny speck of light in a big black hole, maybe in the middle of your head or heart. Try as hard as you like it is not possible to imagine or experience anything on its own, it always has to "be" somewhere. Also you will notice that you probably imagined the point of existence as being separate from you, that is "you" experience something that at least appears other than the you that is experiencing. This leads to the conclusion that if there was ONLY the one thing and NOTHING else that we would not have experience, there would be no existence in any form for there would be nothing to recognise that existence. So there MUST be two-ness, duality.

Second step. A ≠ B. If "A" exists, there must be a "B" that exists such that "A" is not "B". "I am not a table.", "That is not me.". There is a two-ness to existence. Existence has a binary nature. There is duality. If you imagined "A" as sitting comfortably in the middle of the un-manifest void, the we now have another point "B" somewhere in the void. You could consider "B" to be the void itself but as any existence can be represented as a zero point, we will always end up with two points. We can also consider now that when we considered "A" as a single point, it was one point representing two. That is once you have realised duality, it is both expansive and contractive. If there is "A" there must be "B" AND "A" and "B" must each be made up of two things. It is the two-ness we are considering here and it swings both ways. It does not matter if we multiply or divide, once we have two-ness, we have multiplicity. A ≠ B, B ≠ C, C ≠ D ... ∞. Another way of seeing that is that "A" in the middle of the void has an infinite choice of "B" that does not equal "A".

We started out saying that existence had no attributes, now it has duality. There must be something that exists so the zero point cannot be Nothing, it is something. The easiest way to see this is to imagine "A" as an infinitessimal point. That is a point that is nearly nothing but not quite, so small that no amount of them added or multiplied together would ever actually BE anything bigger than another infinitessimal. And, no matter how much you divide an infinitessimal, you will always end up with another infinitessimal.

Now we consider "A" as having at least two components, we can describe "A" as (C, D) and "B" as (C, E), then although "A" and "B" are unique, they share a similarity, "C" and we realise that there must be some similarity between "A" and "B" otherwise they would not exist relative to each other. We could see this as sharing some dimension, spacial or otherwise. I bet you put "B" somewhere in the proximity of "A" when you imagined it in the void. For you to recognise there is existence, there must be a "mechanism" of recognition. We can symbolise this similarity as A = B. It is a matter of perspective. This can be visualised by placing "A" an "B" on the same line, they appear different and yet if you pick the line up and look down it from the end, you just see a single point that contains both "A" and "B". You can play the same trick with a plane. Look at a piece of paper edge on and you see a line, look at the line end on and you get a point. From the point of view of the origin, everything is but one point, All is One.

Bear in mind with all these formula, that unless specified, "A" referred to in one sentence does not necessarily mean the same "A" as mentioned in the next sentence. If I used different letters for each concept, I would run out and things would get confusing. These are general formulae, it is the form of the formula that we are interested in not the specifics. Once we understand the form then we can apply it to a specific circumstance. Just the same as one would use physics formulae e.g. V = IR

Third step. A = B and B = C. Traditionally this is followed by Thus A = C. A statement of similarity in which "B" is the thing that is similar between "A" and "C".
Jack and Jill are the same height but Jack is not Jill (except from the absolute perspective). Jack = 4ft., 4ft. = Jill, Jack ≠ Jill but Jack = Jill in height.
Article = Boundary and Boundary = Context. You can see from this interpretation that as well as defining a similarity, it also defines the separation, arbitrarily seen as the mid point between two point that lies on the line of similarity. Everything in existence shares some similarity but it is also the similarity that separates.

Two more steps before we can have a rest and look around.

Fourth step. A ≠ A + B. This, in a way is a restatement of A ≠ B but contains some extra information in that it makes specific that the difference between the two sides of the equation is "B" A bag of seven oranges is not a bag of eight oranges. As for every "A" there must exist a context "B" within which "A" exists, "A" cannot exist on its own and must always be in the form of A + B which is never the same as just "A".

Fifth step, we are sprinting now. A + B = C. The law of summation. Although A + B does not equal "A" it does equal something "C". If we continue with B + C = D and C + D = E we have the fibonacci sequence { 1,1,2,3,5,8,13...} leading to the Golden Ratio and other interesting things. Lots of details to fill in yet but I hope you get the idea. Stating with an Article of existence, it must have a Binary with a Connection between them and a definable Difference, all of which exists within the Envelope of summation as these are inseparable; A + B + C + D = E.

I lied, it is not five steps, it is one step with five legs. Worn out now, going to rest and recuperate and look back over the path we have covered.

AD :saint:
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby jobsaboba » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:34 am

ArturoDekko wrote:The first step. A = A is the symbolic representation of existence, manifestation labelled 0A on the grid. This is the beginning from which all else is but an un-folding. We know something exists. We experience something. Let us not define it as yet, let it exist with no attributes, no dimensions, spacial or otherwise. As it has no attributes, we can think of it as a single point of zero dimensions, the zero point.
By no dimensions, I am also including zero time, so the point flicks into existence and vanishes again. This does not seem much to go on but the complexity of all experience is crystalised in this one moment, it is the one-ness that gives rise to all.

AD :saint:


Kinda blink and you miss it eh ?? :grin: :grin:

Reminds me of the song, "Night and day....you are the one"

Regards

Jobs
I am not wise......I am otherwise !

its not my banking system... and i dont take credit for it !!
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby Phil: C » Tue Sep 08, 2009 10:15 am

Hi Arturo

:psst: Would it be possible for the sake of clarity to post your expositions as Word (or similar) documents? That way you'd have more control over the formatting. I think you wrote at the beginning that the grids look better in tables. I ask because I've just realised that I've been reading some 'not equal' signs as 'equal' signs, just to add to my confusion!

Just a thought

Phil.
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Re: The meaning of meaning

Postby ArturoDekko » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:24 pm

Aravat - Tried uploading that last bit as a file but exceeded board limitations. Will have to post in smaller bits :giggle:
What file extensions work for you? .odt is good for me.
If I could scan things that would be useful. I just spent 2 hrs trying. Not just for your benefit :grin: , I have plenty of other things to scan. It is a printer/scanner. It will print from file and copy on its own but refuses to scan to file. These things are sent to try us. The maths formulae do not seem to travel well on the net and are so easy to doodle by hand compared to much button punching. I am thinking I should do some of this as a utube presentation if I ever get around to it.
Have put the five formulae discussed so far as odt file to see if you can read it.

Jobs - it is difficult to think of these things if they keep disappearing :rotfl: One useful perspective is to think of it as appearing and disappearing over and over, so fast it just appears to stay where it is. If the appearance is positive time and the disappearance is negative time, then it is like taking one pace forward then one back, you never go anywhere. With this view, all possible moments exist in the same one moment and we just experience a certain succession out of that infinite variety, all the time seeing only the forward step and being blind to the backwards step.
I like this view (it is only one of many possible) as it leaves us some freedom to choose the next moment in that we are attracted to the next moment that most matches our belief system. Notice that the past is only visible from this moment so it is also possible to be in a moment that has a different past from the previous. You can be who ever you want to be as long as you believe it.

AD :saint:
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