FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby huntingross » Mon Dec 07, 2009 9:05 pm

Now that is interesting isn't it....."abandoned" is used in the context of having parents...!!

Good job Farmer
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby ellie12022 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:29 am

so you cannot renounce citizenship or you become 'stateless' and they don't want that, do they? You have to 'fit in' somewhere!!

What I find very interesting is the reply that nothing can supposedly take precedence over the supremacy of the UK Parliament - so how does that work out as regards to Europe/Lisbon Treaty? I wonder if you would get the same answer now.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby emmanualgoldstein » Tue Dec 08, 2009 2:55 am

I think we should bear in mind that these answers are really their understanding of things as opposed to any hard and fast "law".
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby joefree » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:10 am

Great work on this FOI farmer - and interesting replies.

So from point 20 we can conclude that we do not live in a free society since freedom would surely involve the ability to chose to leave. It seems reasonable therefore when you use the term slavery!

Also, what is the definition of new born infant? How old can you be when you're abandoned? And what if you weren't abandoned but 'lost' - when you grew up would you still be forced to be a British citizen?

emmanualgoldstein wrote:I think we should bear in mind that these answers are really their understanding of things as opposed to any hard and fast "law".


Hi EG - I agree with this but is the interpretation of law based on arguing an opinion. So developing an understanding allows us to better know the law.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby emmanualgoldstein » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:41 am

"No one shall be compelled to belong to any association" - Universal Declaration of Human Rights
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby greg » Wed May 12, 2010 6:36 pm

I've been trying to figure this out for a while, I should have just checked here! Excellent work Farmer.

Anyone looked at the convention on human rights?

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/6_1_1961.pdf

"A Contracting State shall grant its nationality to a person born in its territory who would
otherwise be stateless"


"A contracting state" - what an interesting term. Can anyone shed any light on this phrase? Do you think it's just those party to the treaty?

If so, as others have touched upon, this treaty just seems like a contract to tie up the lost sheep which are the stateless chattels and put them to good use in the fields.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby notolivercromwell » Sat May 15, 2010 9:32 am

This is a very useful set of questions and answers. Thanks for that Farmer !


Farmer wrote:Here is the first reply. I still need to write back, but am very pleased with with what they have sent me so far:

In the British Nationality Act 1981 (section 12) (3), a British citizen that has renounced their citizenship must "have or acquire some citizenship or nationality other than British citizenship" within six months:


1. What status does that person have within that six month period?


They lose British citizenship on the date that the declaration of renunciation is registered. British citizenship is retrospectively re-instated if the person does not within the proceding 6 months acquire an alternative nationality or citizenship.

2. By what authority does parliament or Parliament have to make this requirement?


It is a constitutional convention that the Parliament at Westminster is competent to make or unmake any law whatever.

3. Is there a treaty, or international treaty, or requirement/rule as a member of the United Nations that requires this?


The 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness - Article 7

4. What is the difference between citizenship and nationality?


Citizenship refers to the status of a citizen with attendant duties, rights and privileges. It implies a full set of political privileges that nationality does not. Countries have limited rights to determine which of its inhabitants will be nationals.

5. Does this apply to British nationals?


Yes. Article 7(10) of the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order 1986 makes provision for loss of the status of British National (Overseas) by renunciation. Article 7(10) provides that the provisions of s.12 of the British Nationality Act 1981 shall apply in relation to British Nationals (Overseas) and the status of a British National (Overseas) as they apply in relation to British citizens and British citizenship.

6. Does this apply to British subjects?


Yes. Section 34 of the British Nationality Act 1981 makes provision for loss of the status of British subject by renunciation by providing that the provisions of s.12 shall apply in relation to British subjects and the status of a British subject as they apply in relation to British citizens and British citizenship.

7. What is a British citizen?


A British citizen is a person with a connection to the UK or Overseas Territories as a result of birth, naturalisation, registration or adoption. A person can be a British citizen otherwise than by descent or by descent.

8. What is a British subject?


Since 1 January 1983, it is a status that has been, or can be, acquired only by:

certain stateless persons, minors, certain Irish nationals, certain wives (or former wives) of British subjects

9. What is a British national?


The status of British National (Overseas) was introduced by the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order 1986. From 1 July 1987 persons were entitled to register as British Nationals (Overseas) and hold a passport in that status if they were British Dependent Territories citizens by connection with Hong Kong and would not have been British Dependent Territories citizens but for a connection with Hong Kong

10. What status does a person have if they do not meet the above requirements within the Act?


If a person does not have another nationality or does not acquire one within 6 months of the registration of renunciation will be, and be regarded as having remained, a British citizen, British Subject or British National (Overseas), whichever is applicable.

11. Is it possible for a legal fiction such as a company or any variation of such to be a British citizen?


No. People, business, corporations, ships and air craft have nationalities. Only people have citizenship.

12. Are there any lawful or legal differences between 'British' or 'british'?


No

13. Are there any lawful or legal differences between 'Citizen' or 'citizen'?


No

14. Does renouncing British citizenship and acquiring another citizenship or nationality have consequences as to whether that former citizen may stay and live in the geographical land area known as Britain whether then being a citizen or national of the EU or outside the EU?


Yes. By renouncing citizenship a person loses their right of abode in the United Kingdom and becomes subject to immigration control.

15. What is the lawful or legal status and rights of a citizen of another United Nations member that renounces that citizenship while within the borders of Britain?


These will depend on what citizenship they renounce in favour of. Many countries will not recognise a renunciation unless the individual is a dual national and can evidence another citizenship.

16. What is the status and rights of a person within the borders of Britain where it is not possible to identify their citizenship or nationally, and are they able to remain within those borders?


Such a person will be subject to UK immigration control but may have certain rights or privileges under the 1954 Convention on the Status of Stateless Persons and, depending on individual circumstances, the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees or the European Convention on Human Rights.

17. What would be the process be to regain British citizenship once it has been renounced and another citizenship or nationality has been acquired?


A person may apply to resume their British citizenship if they satisfy the requirements of Section 13 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

18. What rights does a person have that is stateless under international law?


See the 1954 Convention on the Status of Stateless Persons and the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness.

19. Is a person that has never had their birth in Britain registered a British citizen?


A person is not automatically British solely as a result of being born in the United Kingdom. Registration of birth is evidence of its occurrence but is not determinative of citizenship

20. How does a British citizen become sovereign?


In order to answer this question we require further clarification of the question and in particular of what is meant by "sovereign"
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby Revs » Sat May 15, 2010 11:53 am

greg wrote:I've been trying to figure this out for a while, I should have just checked here! Excellent work Farmer.

Anyone looked at the convention on human rights?

http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/6_1_1961.pdf

"A Contracting State shall grant its nationality to a person born in its territory who would
otherwise be stateless"


"A contracting state" - what an interesting term. Can anyone shed any light on this phrase? Do you think it's just those party to the treaty?

If so, as others have touched upon, this treaty just seems like a contract to tie up the lost sheep which are the stateless chattels and put them to good use in the fields.


Another interesting word used is 'grant'. My understanding of the word 'grant' is 'bestow', as in a gift. You can refuse a gift, can you not? Also, to accept this 'gift', surely the person would have to be aware, no? You can't accept a gift without knowledge thereof.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby pedawson » Sat May 15, 2010 12:40 pm

It becomes clear that the authorities have created another world. One that MAPS almost exactly to the one that is ‘ACTUAL.’
Because there are countries that are in their world that are not in ours.
These 'OTHER countries' have rules other than in our world. Yes I mean other than in our ‘world’ and not country. Because the country that is created, is not geographic in nature it IS in the 'OTHER' world the one that is created by the PTB.

Rendition and incarceration are common words used by our 'shity' leaders ‘Sent DOWN’ and ‘imprisonment’ are some others. I know, I know there are buildings but they are NOT places you or I can have access to without express permission and on a limited basis - other than IF you are IN their society; Their WORLD.

The answers to the questions that Farmer puts speak volumes - even though they (PTB) SAY that is what they mean THEY know they can change then whenever they wish.
The only way to stop this monster is to cut its head off.
I understand, getting to know their rules and using them against them and I get the point about wasting their time BUT, it is NOT the SYSTEM I want to see CHANGE it is the corrupt BASTARDS that run it for their convenience that I want to see hang, and YES I mean 'HANG' as in 'HANG e'm High' It is these individuals who are traitors, Gordon Brown, and his motley crew Alistair Darling and his eyebrows Ted Heath (figuratively 'HUNG') Harold Wilson (the rectum of the universe) Tony B'LIAR' (mocked and harassed for his life and all his FAMILY of TROLL and dirt baggers) I see he hasn't lost his CHERRY yet, She is still dangling like a ‘dingle berry’ from his very poop Shute.

A bad SYSTEM can be fixed, ethically and morally but these traitors need to be fixed permanently. I see it this way, the way things are going either they fix themselves and come clean or 'We the People' will do it and I think they know if 'We the People' Do it, it aint gonna be NICE.
They created this monster, they HAVE ‘NOW’ to tame it or GET OFF, it is about to KICK.

Namaste, Phil:
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby greg » Sat May 15, 2010 2:56 pm

pedawson wrote:It becomes clear that the authorities have created another world. One that MAPS almost exactly to the one that is ‘ACTUAL.’
Because there are countries that are in their world that are not in ours.
These 'OTHER countries' have rules other than in our world. Yes I mean other than in our ‘world’ and not country. Because the country that is created, is not geographic in nature it IS in the 'OTHER' world the one that is created by the PTB.

Rendition and incarceration are common words used by our 'shity' leaders ‘Sent DOWN’ and ‘imprisonment’ are some others. I know, I know there are buildings but they are NOT places you or I can have access to without express permission and on a limited basis - other than IF you are IN their society; Their WORLD.

The answers to the questions that Farmer puts speak volumes - even though they (PTB) SAY that is what they mean THEY know they can change then whenever they wish.
The only way to stop this monster is to cut its head off.
I understand, getting to know their rules and using them against them and I get the point about wasting their time BUT, it is NOT the SYSTEM I want to see CHANGE it is the corrupt BASTARDS that run it for their convenience that I want to see hang, and YES I mean 'HANG' as in 'HANG e'm High' It is these individuals who are traitors, Gordon Brown, and his motley crew Alistair Darling and his eyebrows Ted Heath (figuratively 'HUNG') Harold Wilson (the rectum of the universe) Tony B'LIAR' (mocked and harassed for his life and all his FAMILY of TROLL and dirt baggers) I see he hasn't lost his CHERRY yet, She is still dangling like a ‘dingle berry’ from his very poop Shute.

A bad SYSTEM can be fixed, ethically and morally but these traitors need to be fixed permanently. I see it this way, the way things are going either they fix themselves and come clean or 'We the People' will do it and I think they know if 'We the People' Do it, it aint gonna be NICE.
They created this monster, they HAVE ‘NOW’ to tame it or GET OFF, it is about to KICK.

Namaste, Phil:


Alright Phil,

I think after lying to the cabinet, the country and the world about Iraq, then killing a million innocents, Tony Blair knew the score. He knew that our laws proscribed hanging, that's why he went and changed them. However, an eye for an eye leads to a world of the blind as they say. Retrubution is not what we need, we need to see that it never happens again. And yes, you're right they have created a monster. Surely though, instead of climbing into a dank cave alone with a sword to cut off the beast's head, it would be better and safer to turn our backs and deny it sustenance?

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