FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby Farmer » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:16 pm

For the benefit of this request for information:

(a) The expression 'person' shall mean a flesh and blood living soul and not a legal fiction.

(b) Please point to the sections of any Acts, Instruments, Treaties, guidance, rules, policies of government or its ministries.


Questions:

In the British Nationality Act 1981 (section 12) (3), a British citizen that has renounced their citizenship must “have or acquire some citizenship or nationality other than British citizenship” within six months:

1. What status does that person have within that six month period?

2. By what authority does parliament or Parliament have to make this requirement?

3. Is there a treaty, or international treaty, or requirement/rule as a member of the United Nations that requires this?

4. What is the difference between citizenship and nationality?

5. Does this apply to British nationals?

6. Does this apply to British subjects?

7. What is a British citizen?

8. What is a British subject?

9. What is a British national?

10. What status does a person have if they do not meet the above requirements within the Act?

11. Is it possible for a legal fiction such as a company or any variation of such to be a British citizen?

12. Are there any lawful or legal differences between 'British' or 'british'?

13. Are there any lawful or legal differences between 'Citizen' or 'citizen'?

14. Does renouncing British citizenship and acquiring another citizenship or nationality have consequences as to whether that former citizen may stay and live in the geographical land area known as Britain whether then being a citizen or national of the EU or outside the EU?

15. What is the lawful or legal status and rights of a citizen of another United Nations member that renounces that citizenship while within the borders of Britain whether?

16. What is the status and rights of a person within the borders of Britain where it is not possible to identify their citizenship or nationally, and are they able to remain within those borders?

17. What would be the process be to regain British citizenship once it has been renounced and another citizenship or nationality has been acquired?

18. What rights does a person have that is stateless under international law?

19. Is a person that has never had their birth in Britain registered a British citizen?

20. How does a British citizen become sovereign?


http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/citizenship_renunciation
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby the_common_law_reverend_kenny » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:31 pm

Rock on farmer.... :yes:

I note the mention of 6 month thingy here...Stateless person (which I think what someone is within the 6 months.)

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/ukresidency/traveldocuments/types/statelessperson/


.........You may apply for a stateless persons' travel document if you have been recognised as a stateless person under the terms of the 1954 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons. This defines a stateless person as someone who is not considered as a national by any country under the terms of its laws. You will need to provide evidence of your status in the form of a letter from us confirming it.

Certain people cannot be recognised as stateless, including those:
who are receiving help or protection from agencies of the United Nations (except the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees; who are recognised by the competent authorities of the country in which they are resident as having the rights and obligations attached to having nationality of that country; or
of whom there are serious reasons for considering they have committed a crime against peace, a war crime, a crime against humanity, a serious non-political crime outside their country of their residence before they started living there, or acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

You must have permission to stay here for at least six months from the date when you apply for a Home Office travel document. This is because other countries may not accept your travel document if you have less than six months' permission to return to the United Kingdom. If you have less than this, you should apply for an extension to your permission to stay before you apply for a travel document.
A stateless persons' document issued to an adult will usually be valid for 10 years if you have permission to stay in the United Kingdom permanently (we call this 'indefinite leave to remain'). If you have temporary permission to stay in the United Kingdom (we call this 'limited leave to remain'), your stateless persons' document will usually be valid for the same period as your permission to stay here, up to five years.

Children cannot be named on the travel document of their parent or guardian. A stateless persons' document issued to a child will usually be valid for five years if the child has permission to stay in the United Kingdom permanently (indefinite leave to remain). If the child has temporary permission to stay in the United Kingdom (limited leave to remain), the stateless persons' document will usually be valid for the same period as his/her permission to stay here, up to five years.
A stateless persons' document is normally valid for travel to all countries.


:peace:
SOVEREIGN: not controlled by outside forces: autonomous; self-governing; independent "a sovereign people" <> "by any peaceful administritive means necessary" - the way of the order.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby Farmer » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:26 pm

Its really interesting how they see people. You can't be sovereign, but you can be stateless.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby huntingross » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:46 pm

Unless you secede and then you are sovereign in your own state.

But a coincidental question.....I was thinking about this today in the context of entering the UK on a Diplomatic passport of your own microstate........I shall be researching this also and await their reply to your FOI farmer.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby Farmer » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:08 pm

This is why I am becoming more and more interested in trying to get to a position of being in the Lord Gods Kingdom in their eyes. That would basically mean the whole planet. It is they who say that you can only be soveiegn within something, that being a country or borders.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby the_common_law_reverend_kenny » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:31 pm

vivre et laisser vivre, c'est pour eux de comprendre et pour nous de faire valoir

(live and let live it is for them to understand and for us to assert)

we've had genration X, here's generation sovereign.

:peace:
SOVEREIGN: not controlled by outside forces: autonomous; self-governing; independent "a sovereign people" <> "by any peaceful administritive means necessary" - the way of the order.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby Farmer » Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:06 am

It was pointed out to me that there is a mistake in question 15, so I send a correction:


John Smith

7 November 2009

Dear Sir/Madam,

Please be advised that the additional word 'whether' at the end of question 15 is an error and should be ignored. Question 15 should read as follows:

15. What is the lawful or legal status and rights of a citizen of another United Nations member that renounces that citizenship while within the borders of Britain?

Yours faithfully,

John Smith
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby jonboy » Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:00 am

Question 17 also contains an unneccesary "be".

"What would be the process be". :hug:
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby Farmer » Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:12 am

I must have read through these questions about 5 times to check them. I will leave that one as it doesn't change the understanding. But thanks for pointing it out just in case they use it as an excuse.
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Re: FOI - Citizenship Renunciation

Postby Farmer » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:44 pm

Here is the first reply. I still need to write back, but am very pleased with with what they have sent me so far:

In the British Nationality Act 1981 (section 12) (3), a British citizen that has renounced their citizenship must "have or acquire some citizenship or nationality other than British citizenship" within six months:


1. What status does that person have within that six month period?


They lose British citizenship on the date that the declaration of renunciation is registered. British citizenship is retrospectively re-instated if the person does not within the proceding 6 months acquire an alternative nationality or citizenship.

2. By what authority does parliament or Parliament have to make this requirement?


It is a constitutional convention that the Parliament at Westminster is competent to make or unmake any law whatever.

3. Is there a treaty, or international treaty, or requirement/rule as a member of the United Nations that requires this?


The 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness - Article 7

4. What is the difference between citizenship and nationality?


Citizenship refers to the status of a citizen with attendant duties, rights and privileges. It implies a full set of political privileges that nationality does not. Countries have limited rights to determine which of its inhabitants will be nationals.

5. Does this apply to British nationals?


Yes. Article 7(10) of the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order 1986 makes provision for loss of the status of British National (Overseas) by renunciation. Article 7(10) provides that the provisions of s.12 of the British Nationality Act 1981 shall apply in relation to British Nationals (Overseas) and the status of a British National (Overseas) as they apply in relation to British citizens and British citizenship.

6. Does this apply to British subjects?


Yes. Section 34 of the British Nationality Act 1981 makes provision for loss of the status of British subject by renunciation by providing that the provisions of s.12 shall apply in relation to British subjects and the status of a British subject as they apply in relation to British citizens and British citizenship.

7. What is a British citizen?


A British citizen is a person with a connection to the UK or Overseas Territories as a result of birth, naturalisation, registration or adoption. A person can be a British citizen otherwise than by descent or by descent.

8. What is a British subject?


Since 1 January 1983, it is a status that has been, or can be, acquired only by:

certain stateless persons, minors, certain Irish nationals, certain wives (or former wives) of British subjects

9. What is a British national?


The status of British National (Overseas) was introduced by the Hong Kong (British Nationality) Order 1986. From 1 July 1987 persons were entitled to register as British Nationals (Overseas) and hold a passport in that status if they were British Dependent Territories citizens by connection with Hong Kong and would not have been British Dependent Territories citizens but for a connection with Hong Kong

10. What status does a person have if they do not meet the above requirements within the Act?


If a person does not have another nationality or does not acquire one within 6 months of the registration of renunciation will be, and be regarded as having remained, a British citizen, British Subject or British National (Overseas), whichever is applicable.

11. Is it possible for a legal fiction such as a company or any variation of such to be a British citizen?


No. People, business, corporations, ships and air craft have nationalities. Only people have citizenship.

12. Are there any lawful or legal differences between 'British' or 'british'?


No

13. Are there any lawful or legal differences between 'Citizen' or 'citizen'?


No

14. Does renouncing British citizenship and acquiring another citizenship or nationality have consequences as to whether that former citizen may stay and live in the geographical land area known as Britain whether then being a citizen or national of the EU or outside the EU?


Yes. By renouncing citizenship a person loses their right of abode in the United Kingdom and becomes subject to immigration control.

15. What is the lawful or legal status and rights of a citizen of another United Nations member that renounces that citizenship while within the borders of Britain?


These will depend on what citizenship they renounce in favour of. Many countries will not recognise a renunciation unless the individual is a dual national and can evidence another citizenship.

16. What is the status and rights of a person within the borders of Britain where it is not possible to identify their citizenship or nationally, and are they able to remain within those borders?


Such a person will be subject to UK immigration control but may have certain rights or privileges under the 1954 Convention on the Status of Stateless Persons and, depending on individual circumstances, the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees or the European Convention on Human Rights.

17. What would be the process be to regain British citizenship once it has been renounced and another citizenship or nationality has been acquired?


A person may apply to resume their British citizenship if they satisfy the requirements of Section 13 of the British Nationality Act 1981.

18. What rights does a person have that is stateless under international law?


See the 1954 Convention on the Status of Stateless Persons and the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness.

19. Is a person that has never had their birth in Britain registered a British citizen?


A person is not automatically British solely as a result of being born in the United Kingdom. Registration of birth is evidence of its occurrence but is not determinative of citizenship

20. How does a British citizen become sovereign?


In order to answer this question we require further clarification of the question and in particular of what is meant by "sovereign"
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