Apparently there are some people out there ...

Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby rodgreenwell » Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:09 am

Hi Kevin,

Whilst I agree in principle with your comment, "It's not up to you to prove anything, they have to prove you had the money and they gave it to you from their funds," having the court recognise this and respond to this is a different story. The fact is that the court deals in contracts. The contract has two names on it as the creditor and debtor. Under the guise of the CCA 1974 / 2006, the fraudulent bankster (the claimant) does not need to produce said evidence to prove the money came from their own funds.. If they complied with the CCA as they need to do so, the defendant is in default... like it or not, that is the case, that is the contract. (need to be careful here as well as technically the bank "could prove" that it was holding funds prior to release into your account... the key here is at inception did money move from their account into yours and was it their money at inception or was ith the signature on the agreement that provided the funding instrument?). From experience and the comments of others, it is extremely difficult to argue with the judge and have your point/s even acknowledged let alone considered.

Now we all know that money did not originate from the bank... but the burden of proof, in the court lies with the defendant to argue and prove their contrary case, (meanwhile the banks hold the documentation/ledger entries to prove this and will fight tooth and nail to keep it) so as the defendant, this remains very difficult.

As Veronica rightly points out "There is no such thing as 'money'. There is no such thing as 'value'. There is no such thing as 'buy'. There is no such thing as 'sell'" We know this to be correct, however :gasp: , finding a way to argue this case and win in a "court of law" when it comes to it, is something else (and whilst I agree with the concept of freeman philosophy) we are dealing within morally corrupt and fraudulent financial institutions.

OK, slightly off topic but relevant and helpful I hope.
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby gepisar » Mon Sep 28, 2009 4:32 pm

Ok, acceptance for value is one thing and debt eradication another.
The debt method has been worked out and a "best approached" defined. However, it is a simple strategy borne out of something that IS more complicated then most people think. "I borrowed money". Truth is there is more to it than that.

I think rodgreenwell is sensible in his approach.

I might also add that c/cards can be challenged many different way and knowing what particular circumstance suits you will persuade you to one method or another regardless of whether you actually borrowed or not. IF the bank cant even find the contract... whoopie.

If they can, I can demonstrate neither party brought substance to it, this may also be a line of attack.

etc ...

And whilst comments about money not existing is true, this is EXACTLY why accounts need balancing. Ive notice that credit card companies do not write "you owe us"...the write "your account is out of order".

It just a big paper exercise with one thing in mind: control! "You MUST do this so we can balance the books!"

So, have it "got it" or not, because I really need answers soonish, the hounds are at the door!!!
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"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value - Zero" - Voltaire 1729
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby Ian:Robb-Forgie » Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:58 pm

Try and look at it another way.
You go to a movie (a cartoon) and you speak to the usher then the cartoon character DAFFY DUCk loans you money and the usher gives you a check and tells you have to pay the loan plus interest or he will sick GOOFY on you.
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby gepisar » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:30 pm

Ian:Robb-Forgie wrote:Try and look at it another way.
You go to a movie (a cartoon) and you speak to the usher then the cartoon character DAFFY DUCk loans you money and the usher gives you a check and tells you have to pay the loan plus interest or he will sick GOOFY on you.


Ive got the understanding of the fictional persons, the so called "fraud" (i say it like that because the fraud, in law is legal, and therefore by definition, legally, isnt a fraud), the mis-selling on of my property, the fractional reserve system and so on.

Your analogy is more accurate than a first glance, since Daffy can only give me fictional money: money of account. Therefore, Im under no obligation to "pay" (if i wanted to) with anything other than money of account. More fiction.

Its the mechanics that Im interested in:


you sign a Loan Application (for a loan, mortgage ... anything).

You send it to the Bank, Building Society, or whatever.

YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM A CHEQUE, WHICH THEY CAN CASH AT THE TREASURY.

Your signature, on that document, is AUTHORISATION to release those 'funds' ... to whoever asked for them. To whoever was THE BEARER of the authorisation.



HOW? I accepts this, and understand that its all just accounting, since as we've established money doesnt exist.

BUT understanding HOW is the thing...

IM assuming its because UK is in bankruptcy and holds its citizens labour as surety for the debt. And whilst in bankruptcy, we must forgive debts OR discharge them until real money comes back (post-bankruptcy) or my preferred option: set-off.

Since we're creditors to the bankruptcy, we can do what Veronica says:

i.e. we sign stuff as creditor: Something like "Dear Treasury in further administration of the UK debt, please be advised that as creditor, i wish you to adjust the account of SOMECOMPANY to show zero balance. I have instructed them to write to you {the A4v} authorising this credit. Thanks much. Have a nice day" This instruction can be as a discharge or offset.

V,let me know if i've mis-understood you. I keep asking "if ive got it!"

Further: Imagine this.

Your little brother borrows 1,000 quid from you. He, in turn borrows from his friend, 500 quid. But then your bro cant repay that. So as creditor to your bro, you say to bro, not to worry, Ill pay for that, but adjust your account to show that you only owe me 500. Then you turn to your brothers lender and say, adjust your account to show "bro" account zerod. I'll owe you 500 instead.

Is that how it works?

The story is missing the bit as to how the brothers lender is satisfied.Anyone?

So, if you denounce citizenship (FREEMAN) can you use these methods as you presumably abandoned your credit to the UK (plc)?

@ian, what would your approach be to deal with c/cards? Wait for the DCA or hit the bank straight away with requesting proof of debt?

With love...

JR
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby Ian:Robb-Forgie » Mon Sep 28, 2009 8:50 pm

Once you get an understanding of the concept the hard part is dealing with the usher because they think they are getting payed and thier not. When you try and tell them the truth they want to teach you a lesson.
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby Ian:Robb-Forgie » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:27 pm

As to the credit cards. I'm rewriting notices so as to get a repost it accounts set up. By that I mean someone has to set up the accounts after accepting the appropriate promissory notes for zero balance of the accounts. The world debt actually belongs to us I can't pay you, you can't pay me all we can do is forgive the debt and accept for value the goods. A job is just something to do and the costumer is always right. I don't need or want F17's, cruse missile’s tanks, they don't do me any good.
Killing is always in a noble cause must be because they are guilty. It’s a matter of historical record.
Prove me wrong. :8-):
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby gepisar » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:36 pm

Killing is always in a noble cause must be because they are guilty. It’s a matter of historical record.
Prove me wrong. :8-):

YOU MADE THE CLAIM! Up to you to prove!!
:wink:

Ian:Robb-Forgie wrote:As to the credit cards. I'm rewriting notices so as to get a repost it accounts set up. By that I mean someone has to set up the accounts after accepting the appropriate promissory notes for zero balance of the accounts. The world debt actually belongs to us I can't pay you, you can't pay me all we can do is forgive the debt and accept for value the goods. A job is just something to do and the costumer is always right. I don't need or want F17's, cruse missile’s tanks, they don't do me any good.

Can you explain a little further? I think ive missed a bit:
I'm rewriting notices

What notices?
so as to get a repost it accounts set up

Is this a typo? Do you men a repository account? (As opposed to a DEPOSIT account?)
Where? At the bank - or treasury, depends on the above (what notices)
By that I mean someone has to set up the accounts after accepting the appropriate promissory notes for zero balance of the accounts

Kinda lost the thread a little bit. What accounts? What promissory notes to whom?
Are you talking about when you arrange for a "loan": you deposit your promissory note for value against the money-of-account?
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby ArturoDekko » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:45 pm

How is this for simple.

NO ONE can repay ANY debts until the Bank of England makes good on ITS promise to pay.

AD :saint:
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby Ian:Robb-Forgie » Mon Sep 28, 2009 10:59 pm

As to the reposit account the law society contols the treaury and the bank they can do it.
As to the nobel cause look in a history book take the First World War for example a domestic dispute between whose grandchildren?
I don't know if you know. Only Her Magisty Queen Elizabeth may speak to a lawyer and only the Pope can read what they write.
Read in English you have to listen to what is said then write it down and read it back. In Law you look at a piece of paper then someone asked did you read it, okay now sign your life away.
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby gepisar » Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:49 pm

ArturoDekko wrote:How is this for simple.

NO ONE can repay ANY debts until the Bank of England makes good on ITS promise to pay.

AD :saint:


YES! As the meerkat says, "SIMPLES"

BUT HOW DO WE DISCHARGE DEBTS...WHATS THE PROCESS AND HOW DO WE DO IT?
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