Apparently there are some people out there ...

Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby Veronica » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:56 pm

... who still don't 'get it'.

(This post is not for those who do)

You sign a Loan Application (for a loan, mortgage ... anything).

You send it to the Bank, Building Society, or whatever.

YOU HAVE GIVEN THEM A CHEQUE, WHICH THEY CAN CASH AT THE TREASURY.

Your signature, on that document, is AUTHORISATION to release those 'funds' ... to whoever asked for them. To whoever was THE BEARER of the authorisation.

(The Treasury can print as many banknotes and coinage as it would ever need. In point of fact these days, there is no limit because it is all numbers in a Computer Database)

The Treasury does not want this 'money' back. Because it knows it is ALL an illusion anyway. The Treasury is simply there to 'control' the release of the 'money'. To release it upon 'authorisation'. YOUR authorisation.

Because the Bank or Building Society was THE BEARER, the funds are released to them.

Now, what has happened is that you have authorised the release of CREDIT, and the Bank or Building Society (or whatever) has collected that CREDIT.

In short, YOU have GIVEN the Bank or Building Society some CREDIT ... credit they did not have before you signed the Loan Application.

THEY OWE THIS TO YOU. THEY SHOULD PASS THIS ON TO YOU.

Well, they do ... but THEN THEY CHARGE YOU FOR IT, by expecting you to pay it back to THEM, with INTEREST.

THEY DO NOT PAY IT BACK TO THE TREASURY. The Treasury doesn't want it back. The Treasury is not a 'profit-motivated' organisation.

And, furthermore, if this fraud were not enough ... NOWHERE, IN THIS MECHANISM, IS ANY 'MONEY' CREATED SUCH AS TO CREATE THE 'INTEREST'. Consequently the entire delusion is ultimately self-defeating. Hence a 'Credit Crunch'. Which no kind of 'bailout' can ever 'fix', because the interest was nowhere ever 'created'.

If you still don't understand the mechanism & fraud after this explanation, then I don't know how else to explain it. I can inly suggest re-reading it ... until it finally dawns on you.

As, and when, we discover the exact mechanism for placing these authorisations, we will be able to go DIRECTLY to the Treasury as BEARERS of OUR authorisations, and have the 'money' directly credited to US. At that point, since everyone will be able to create as much as they would ever need, the entire bubble will burst. The illusion will finally be shattered. That's why they are fighting so hard to prevent such an eventuality.

This is the crux. The nub. The fundamental aspect of EVERYTHING. Extracting this mechanism is crucial, and why I bat on about it so much.

There is no such thing as 'money'. There is no such thing as 'value'. There is no such thing as 'buy'. There is no such thing as 'sell'

There is one thing, and one thing only: EXCHANGE.

We need a mechanism for FREE EXCHANGE to does not DECEIVE. One that is open, honest, and forthright. And that's all we need.
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby jonboy » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:45 pm

Last edited by jonboy on Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby jonboy » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:47 pm

i would really like to know what happens to a 'loan application' after we sign it. I would also like to know If i sent my own loan application into the treasury, without a bank as a middle man.
"Reason is the life of the law; nay, the common law itself is nothing else but reason. The law which is perfection of reason" Sir Edward Coke 1552-1634.

NO ONE RULES IF NO ONE OBEYS.

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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby Veronica » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:17 pm

Yes ... that's what I'm trying to find out with my FoI. It may take another one. (Watch this space).

Remember, Arizona Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur said to those facing foreclosure 'Stay put. Demand the Note' (The 'Note' is the Morgage Application) .. http://politicalvoicesofwomen.ning.com/%20...%20an-advises

What she was saying is "They can't come up with the original application because they've cashed it. Which means they use this money to loan it back to you. Therefore they did not use their own money. Therefore the contract was invalid".

Well, you know, if a Congresswoman is saying that ... it kind of says it all, doesn't it?
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby Veronica » Mon Mar 02, 2009 10:25 pm

That 'Brief History of Money' is good. I've seen it before.
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby gepisar » Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:17 am

Argh! Just when I thought I had it all figured out!!! Now Im really confused...

When you go to the bank and arrange a loan it was my understanding that "we" signed a promissory note. The bank in effect at the same time, created a promise to pay you the funds equivalent to your promissory note.

THEN then bank created an account in your name and credited it with the digital money. (Whether you take it as cash or cheque is not important) BUT theres an accounting imbalance created, since the two promises to pay cancel, the client account they just created has credits, without debits. This is the money from thin air - again legal "fraud"

NOW, some say that the promissory note is ENDORSED by the bank and SOLD. Since the promissory note is a BILL of EXCHANGE, they can do this. IT IS LEGAL. Some refer to this as fraud. Now, to my regret I was hoping to challenge my "lenders" of this point. BUT IT IS LEGAL "fraud" non the less and the claim wont stand up in court.

A BILL OF EXCHANGE is an instruction made by the DRAWER to the DRAWEE to pay the PAYEE on a future date. A 3rd party can buy that BILL OF EXCHANGE and still hold the person (can we leave strawman out for the moment!) who signed it liable. The courts will enforce this and Im not off the hook. My loan I should add, was unsecured, thefore, I susepct I cant show any consideration either???

For the BANK to CASH at the TREASURY, the TREASURY would have to be the 3rd party PURCHASER of said BILL of EXCHANGE (promissory note)

Therefore, the TREASURY could insist that I fulfil that bill of exchange?

Gosh this is doing my head in!

Also, since the bank has created credits, under fractional reserve rules, it is obliged to hold 10% of the new credits and is at liberty to loan out the other 90% etc...

The problem is this; if i ask my lender for proof of claim (i.e. sight of the original promissory note) they may well not show it to me because:
a> Theyve sold it on
b> pledged it to another internal account

In either case, my liability to that document still exists.

Now, to simplify, we could assume that the banking system is a closed system. It might as well all be just one big bank, at the centre of which is the Bank of England, who are in cahoots with the Treasury.

So, yes, missing out several stages, the credit created in our accounts, authorised by us, does in the end, come from BoE/Treasury.
why am i confused?

Because I cant explain the credits. Who do they belong to?

They're conjured out of thin air, moved around the closed loops of the bank system.

I have a liability on the promissory note, and presumably the bank has a similar liability on its promise to pay me.

But these credits have nothing to do with the promissory notes.

The only place they CAN come from is the issuing body : BoE/Treasury.

Is this right? Have i "got it"?

Does the bank then pledge the promissory note as security (to treasury) against the credits(from Treasury)? But if that is so, then If I make good on my promissory note and pay Treasury, I, out of pocket. BUTif this IS the case, the bank still has a promise to pay me, which I call in and then everyone is square...

Thinking about it, this isnt right either, as my promissory note is pledged twice...ah but then this is EXACTLY why the note will never be called in. The bank is forced to hold it. It can't sell it, as it is using it a security against credit from Treasury. ITS ONLY when the BILL OF EXCHANGE IS SOLD that I become liable to the 3rd party. So, the bank insists I repay the credits plus interest...Im back where I started.

HELP!

Anyone?

Doh!
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby nameless » Sun Sep 27, 2009 9:12 pm

I think you are making it too complicated. We need to keep this simple at all times.

We, as the principal creditors within the Chapter 11 Bankruptcy of UK Corporation Plc, sign prom notes and create money via our signature. What the bank does with them is neither here nor there. All I know is, they con me into borrowing my own money and then have the gall to ask me to repay it and charge me interest on it as well.
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby gepisar » Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:34 pm

nameless wrote:I think you are making it too complicated. We need to keep this simple at all times.
All I know is, they con me into borrowing my own money and then have the gall to ask me to repay it and charge me interest on it as well.


Complicated? Well, that may be. We need to understand the process regardless as to whether its simple or complex. Im not making it complicated. It is what it is, and Im putting out there my three months of research to be specifically faulted/corrected/confirmed. If it were simple, everyone would be doing it. There may be a lot of steps involved, but your assessment is correct. We are creditors to the UK, as I understand it. And therefore, I agree, we can do what we like as masters of the bankruptcy if you like. BUT the accounts must be balanced. So, all that were doing is zeroing one account with another. Simple. But what accounts, when and how, and who needs to be involved and in what order?

With respect, you cant go to court and just say "All I know is they've conned me into borrowing my own money..." Fact is, you haven't borrowed anything, and so that statement itself is both incorrect, and a statement of ignorance. You MUST be able to describe what and how. How did they con you? What proof do you have of that act? What money? Was it money of account or money of exchange? There is a difference. And you say you borrowed your own money? Legally, what does "borrow" mean? Can you actually borrow your own money? You might be able to! Ok Im poking a bit in your eye, but if you get to court, youre gonna have to know this stuff.

Without understanding, some folks start thinking they can A4V Aston Martens with site-bonds backed by their b/c bond. Which you can not...or can you explain why you can? If you can explain why, and that explanation satisfies a judge against your fraud, go for it.

I dont say this to big up myself, but its important to be rigorous, and in the beginning, we must know exactly the process. Later, we might learn some steps can be reduced, cut out and then we may well end up with a 10-step, one-size-fits all solution.

We, as the principal creditors within the Chapter 11 Bankruptcy of UK Corporation Plc, sign prom notes and create money via our signature.

Agreed. Yes, that is the outline, but what are the implications? If you start signing any old bits of paper, other people can use your signature too! We must be diligent.

What the bank does with them is neither here nor there.

I'd respectfully suggest it is. If they dont do their job properly, I want to send a rocket up their backsides so I get what I want, Im sure you do too.

To be clear then, the process of A4V I have the following question:

What can be "A4v'd"?

Bills, invoices, Ious, bills of exchange?

Whos created the liability when I get a gas bill?

What if they dont send remedy with the bill?

What IS the remedy they should send? (The tear off coupon - is that a check/draft whats the specific nature?)

When I write "Accepted for Value, exempt from levy...etc..." who do I return the document to? The sender or treasury?

They're not likely to know what to do with it, what should I tell them?

Does my Treasury set-off account have to be in place? Does it have to be bonded? Is it best to protect it with a UCC/lien? Is it best to act directly with commercial liability or use the strawman as debtor? Can I even do that? Is it "My" fiction to use? If I need the strawman, can I also be a freeman on the land? It would seem I cant have it both ways...

What happens if the service provider cant/wont accept the A4V? Then what?

Can I use A4v when my friend gives me an invoice for work he carried out at my request?

Can I buy ferraris with A4F? If so, how? If not, why not?

When I make a loan at the bank where do the credits come from? What happens to my prom note? Is it sold as a bill of exchange? Do I still have the liability? Do I actually have to make good on the promise? Does the bank give an equal promise to pay. If its an unsecured loan, is there any consideration at all? Did the bank give full disclosure? Was I supposed to know "buyer beware"? Where did the credit come from? Previously I had assumed the credit were in exchange for the prom note: thus I owed nothing. Ive since learned that the bank make a promise to pay me the amount i promise to pay them and the credits are pulled out of thin air. They always were. But now i dont think they can be considered in exchange for my prom note. Was I mistaken in the first instance or second? If the bank sells my prom note, how can they lend out against it - they cant. Are they then lending out against the credits they conjured into my client account?

So much to learn... and i need to know quickish!

ok, rant, over, hope were still friends!
:yes:
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby kevin » Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:59 am

gepisar wrote:
In either case, my liability to that document still exists.
:



you owe me £50 and i'm going to take you to court to get it from you because you wont pay, should the court uphold my claim even though I do not have any proof of the debt?

simple...no proof...no claim
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Re: Apparently there are some people out there ...

Postby kevin » Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:08 am

gepisar wrote: BUT the accounts must be balanced.


this is impossible as there isn't any money to balance, how can you pay interest back? the money doesn't exist

[quote="gepisar"]
With respect, you cant go to court and just say "All I know is they've conned me into borrowing my own money..." Fact is, you haven't borrowed anything, and so that statement itself is both incorrect, and a statement of ignorance. You MUST be able to describe what and how. How did they con you? What proof do you have of that act? What money? Was it money of account or money of exchange? There is a difference. And you say you borrowed your own money? Legally, what does "borrow" mean? Can you actually borrow your own money? You might be able to! Ok Im poking a bit in your eye, but if you get to court, youre gonna have to know this stuff. [quote]

It's not up to you to prove anything, they have to prove you had the money and they gave it to you from their funds
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