What is Justice?

What is Justice?

Postby emmanualgoldstein » Thu Jul 01, 2010 4:33 am

A burglar steals food from its rightful owner (who spent a season growing it), in order to feed his family.

We are all accutely aware when an injustice occurs, both to ourselves and to others that we favour. If we are impartial we can see that there are often merits to both causes. Can justice exist universally, or is it simply a matter of who we are more partial to? What then can be said about the theoretical idea of the impartiality of a judge and jury?

So what is justice and what is your reasoning why you hold that, that is what justice is?
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby the_common_law_reverend_kenny » Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:46 am

every case has its own merit and context, or as they say mitgating circumstance. Stealing is wrong but it is also wrong to stand by and watch your family go hungry, justice is essentially balance, where all are treated equally without bias for one or the other.

Just going on what you say, whoever stole the food would need to pay back( somehow) what they took, that would be fair, but, like I say it's a simplistic view, especially not knowing all context.

Justice is balance.
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby Farmer » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:42 am

someone spends time growing a crop. They put their labour into it. The farmer grows more than he personally needs. Does this crop belong to him?

For some reason, that year the others in the village were unable to get access to food. The only food is what the farmer grew. If the farmer does not give the others from the village some of his crop they will starve. Do the others have a right to take some of the crop to feed themselves when they did nothing to help themselves previously?

is the crop that the farmer grew wealth?

in a society where there is no money or bartering, why on earth would anyone work in a coal mine, collect the rubbish, clean the street, clean the sewers, clean the public toilets when there are others that sit in an office pushing paper in an airconditioned envionment?
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby the_common_law_reverend_kenny » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:53 am

in a society where there is no money or bartering, why on earth would anyone work in a coal mine, collect the rubbish, clean the street, clean the sewers, clean the public toilets when there are others that sit in an office pushing paper in an airconditioned envionment?


What we have to trust in is diversity of taste, horses for courses. What is one mans love is another mans hate.

If people do what they love then maybe everything will balance, i.e sitting in an office is the last thing some people would want, cleaning toilets is someones idea of a really worthwhile job, point is we are billions and we are diverse.

Everyone has a role to play but to play that role we need to know who we are (each of us) and why we are here.
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby Farmer » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:24 am

the_common_law_reverend_kenny wrote:What we have to trust in is diversity of taste, horses for courses. What is one mans love is another mans hate.


You need to take a closer look at the Soviet Union. The reason they were always short of food was because the farmers, or should I say, those working on the farms, didn't really work. The coal miners had no choice but to work in the mines. This is the reality.
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby emmanualgoldstein » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:45 am

Ive come to what I think is a logical conclusion that justice is in fact universal. But before I can state this, I may have to state something about the universality of truth.

Truth
Two men arguing over whether a refrigerator light stays on or goes out when the refrigerator door closes. Both claim their mutually exclusive perspective to be the truth. When it is revealed that the refrigerator has no light, it becomes apparent that neither of their views are the truth. While they now say that “the truth is...” that the no light will go out, or stay on, as there is no light, however, it is not the truth that has changed, only their view.

The truth is universal. When we say that the truth is based upon perspective, what we mean is that the view of truth is based upon perspective. If we seen truth as having two meanings at the same time, we may as well be say "chocolate bar" when we mean "grizzly bear".


The reason why truth is important is because to establish that this view of justice is true - no matter which perspective you look at it from.

Justice
1.A freedom can be acquired without restriction.
2.A freedom is justly acquired, only if, it is acquired without causing injustice.
3.Injustice only occurs when a justly acquired freedom is lost.
4.Justice is defined by what is not injustice.

(While I am sure that "a right is a justly acquired freedom", I cannot say that is all a right is, so the terms may not be synonymous so that it can also be said that "a justly aquired freedom is a right". I will stick with justly acquired freedom.

The burglar complains it is unjust that he cant eat and has a justly acquired freedom to his life.
The farmer complains it is unjust that his crops are stolen and has a justly acquired freedom to his produce.

It cannot be that there is one justice/injustice depending who you are, at least one view must be false as both cannot be true. Yet stand in either of their shoes and we see that both appear to be stating the truth.

The answer I see is that there are two simultaneous injustices playing off one another - or even two justly acquired freedoms - the farmers produce versus the burglars life.

If anyone can refute the above definition of justice from a universal perspective using a reasoned argument or by presenting some paradox why it cannot be the truth, Id be most grateful. If not, I think we should discuss ways of prioritising rights in a way that is universally just.
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby Farmer » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:11 pm

The problem is that it does not deal with the fact that some are more intelligent than others, and that some have more intellect than others. Those with more of either of those will in the end always come out on top and control those that have less of either.
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby emmanualgoldstein » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:24 am

True farmer. Others might say the same in regard to muscle or inherited wealth. Nothing stops us from developing the abilities we choose to develop, although nature will limit us. If nature has caused the injustice, who can hold it to account? We may not be able to prevent every natural injustice from occurring, but we have managed to see our way around being affected by them. We feel cold, we make clothes. We feel wet, we build shelters. If ability is an injustice which must be overcome, perhaps it is easy, perhaps it is hard, but we will never know unless we try, and theres no point in trying if we beleive we can never change it.
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby the_common_law_reverend_kenny » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:29 am

and theres no point in trying if we beleive we can never change it.
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Re: What is Justice?

Postby emmanualgoldstein » Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:45 am

the_common_law_reverend_kenny wrote:
and theres no point in trying if we beleive we can never change it.
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