CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby free_spirit » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:24 am

Hi Everyone

I have a female family member who was cited as a witness last week. The cops came to her door and she accepted the citation. She turned up
at court but was not called as the case was adjourned.

I understand that she will need to be cited again for the new date. She doesn't want to appear.

Can she refuse to take the paperwork when the cops attempt to hand it to her? Also if they push it
through the letterbox can she R4C it? I cant remember if she had to sign for the first one or not but will find out.

Cheers for any replies.
WAKE UP PEOPLE OR ELSE ON YOUR DEATH BED YOU WILL BE THINKING, WHAT THE F**K WAS ALL THAT ABOUT
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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby treeman » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:20 pm

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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby huntingross » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:47 pm

Looks like they take citations seriously....

http://www.google.com/webhp#sclient=psy&hl=en&site=webhp&source=hp&q=citation+as+a+witness&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=74cb239d2754d6f

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/ahmanual/ah0680.htm

In Scotland, a witness summons is called a witness citation and sub-paragraphs (4) and (5) of the Regulation (not cross-examining your own witness and hostile witness) do not apply. In Scotland, the expression `hostile witness' has no technical meaning. When a witness in a Scottish case gives evidence damaging to the summoning party, that party is free to challenge the witness's evidence by suggesting to him that in specified respects it is mistaken, unreliable or untruthful, and may ask the Commissioners to disbelieve any part of it. He does not require the leave of the Commissioners to do this.
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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby free_spirit » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:45 pm

Thanks for both the replies but we would like to go down the no contract route.

One is under no obligation to assist police with their enquiries, she did not know this at the time
therefore she was interviewed and gave a statement.

Would it then not be the case that she can not be forced in to a contract which would require her to
perform unless she agrees to? In other words refuse it for cause?

Thanks
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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby treeman » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:08 pm

#
Consent and Contracts

# Consent makes the law. A contract is a law between the parties, which can acquire force only by consent.
# Consent makes the law: the terms of a contract, lawful in its purpose, constitute the law as between the parties.
# To him consenting no injury is done.
# He who consents cannot receive an injury.
# Consent removes or obviates a mistake.
# He who mistakes is not considered as consenting.
# Every consent involves a submission; but a mere submission does not necessarily involve consent.
# A contract founded on a base and unlawful consideration, or against good morals, is null.
# One who wills a thing to be or to be done cannot complain of that thing as an injury.
# The agreement of the parties makes the law of the contract.
# The contract makes the law.
# Agreements give the law to the contract.
# The agreement of the parties overcomes or prevails against the law.
# Advice, unless fraudulent, does not create an obligation.
# No action arises out of an immoral consideration.
# No action arises on an immoral contract.
# In the agreements of the contracting parties, the rule is to regard the intention rather than the words.
# The right of survivorship does not exist among merchants for the benefit of commerce.
# When two persons are liable on a joint obligation, if one makes default the other must bear the whole.
# You ought to know with whom you deal.
# He who contracts, knows, or ought to know, the quality of the person with whom he contracts, otherwise he is not excusable.
# He who approves cannot reject.
# If anything is due to a corporation, it is not due to the individual members of it, nor do the members individually owe what the corporation owes.
# Agreement takes the place of the law: the express understanding of parties supercedes such understanding as the law would imply.
# Manner and agreement overrule the law.
# The essence of a contract being assent, there is no contract where assent is wanting.


Court and Pleas

# There can be no plea of that thing of which the dissolution is sought.
# A false plea is the basest of all things.
# There can be no plea against an action which entirely destroys the plea.
# He who does not deny, admits. [A well-known rule of pleading]
# No one is believed in court but upon his oath.
# An infamous person is repelled or prevented from taking an oath.
# In law none is credited unless he is sworn. All the facts must, when established by witnesses, be under oath or affirmation.
# An act of the court shall oppress no one.
# The practice of a court is the law of the court.
# There ought to be an end of law suits.
# It concerns the commonwealth that there be an end of law suits.
# It is for the public good that there be an end of litigation.
# A personal action dies with the person. This must be understood of an action for a tort only.
# Equity acts upon the person.
# No one can sue in the name of another.


Court Appearance

[This is why we should avoid voluntarily appearing in court]

# A general appearance cures antecedent irregularity of process, a defective service, etc.
# Certain legal consequences are attached to the voluntary act of a person.
# The presence of the body cures the error in the name; the truth of the name cures an error in the description
# An error in the name is immaterial if the body is certain.
# An error in the name is nothing when there is certainty as to the person.
# The truth of the demonstration removes the error of the name.
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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby free_spirit » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:50 pm

Cheers for all those useful Maxims Treeman.

I do remember Winston Shrout saying that the only time you should ever appear in court
is when they drag you in kicking and screaming, which is fine for us with the confidence of
right on our side. Not so easy for an anxious lady with no knowledge of procedure.

If she can be prepared for it the simplest way I think is to R4C the citation within 72 hours
and wait to see if they come for her. If they do, I know she has no recollection of the events
and will say exactly that whilst recommending the court they regard her as an unreliable witness.
Repeating that statement as many times as neccessary should she be forced in to court, would be her best bet as it is the truth in fact.

Thoughts
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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby treeman » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:12 pm

I wish you well. The maxims of Law were provided by a mate called Mark. Thank you.

Fuck em off, thats my maxim. I owe them nothing.YOU owe them NO thing. :grin: :peace:
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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby musashi » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:00 pm

I am a bit late on this post - as usual, but I am busy and can't be as many places as I'd like. However, for future reference I can say this.
Statements are in administration and admin can be changed at any time.
Anyone can change a statement at any time and the revised statement is the only one that can be entered or used. No-one may prevent this, even if they say it can't be done. Any other statement may be repudiated and the user charged with perjury and perverting the course of justice. A new statement can be written up, handed in to the cops and then one can refuse to discuss it further.
A statement is your truth and no-one can dispute your right to present your truth in the best way you see fit, to revise, retract or alter in any way you wish. Be sure to get a copy of your original statement and revise it.

Aternatively, when the usher asks if you will swear to tell the truth, the whole truth etc, just say "NO" and there's bugger all they can do. You cannot be forced into an oath, and if you won't go on oath.....what happens to your role in the trial?
It is not a crime to tell a lie - but it is if you do it under oath.
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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby Veronica » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:09 pm

You can say "I can't swear to tell the whole Truth, because I don't know the whole Truth. I don't know anyone who does. I've never known anyone who knows the whole Truth. I only know the bit I know. I have no idea whether that is a small part of the whole, or a large part of the whole ... but I doubt that it is the whole, and I have absolutely no way of knowing."

And let them pick the bones out of that.
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Re: CITED AS A WITNESS BUT DON'T WANT TO CONTRACT

Postby holy vehm » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:39 pm

Both of the above posts/answers are quality :clap:
Both show the utter absurdity of the question "do you promise to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me god"
What does god have to do with it, he/she can not possibly help me.
I swear on the bible, but its taken away once i have sworn an oath.
Surely if i need gods help then the bible must contain the answers therefore i need to keep hold of it.

It doesnt take much to totally trump a court does it, the vast majority of people who end up in court follow the lead of the usher as though they are on your side and they blindly do as they are told but once you take control of the situation as mentioned above by musashi and veronica you dont need to say very much for a court to stop and look as though it doent know what to do next.
"A ruler who violates the law is illegitimate. He has no right to be obeyed. His commands are mere force and coercion. Rulers who act lawlessly, whose laws are unlawful, are mere criminals".
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