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Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:15 am
by consumerpada
Same thing except this letter is to a mortgage company, I have been asking the documents for three/four months now....At first they wouldn't deal with the trust without 'government registration numbers.' But I assured them that this trust was undergoing a formal auditing process BEFORE any registration could possibly be considered and that it is part of our terms and conditions that every account is properly verified.

So they sent me a bunch of stamped printed copies as verified documents.....

(suffice it to say, these guys are extremely worthy adversaries, if you get it wrong they WILL re-posses your shit if you let them)

.............................................................................................template_error_mortgage_2.78..........................................

Your ref : NAME OF ORIGINAL PERSON
Account # 999888877776

Account Status: Error - Requires Audit

Continued Administrative Error

Dear Mrs 'work person',
I write to acknowledge to documents you have sent.

Unfortunately our terms and conditions do not allow us to accept the validation from of your ‘in house staff’. Not only are they not independent but more importantly they have not been contracted by the family trust

• I can personally verify the documents
• I can contract a third party to verify the documents
• You can send an agent to us with the documents


Once the documents have been properly verified, we can no more contend that the originals are not present.
(original Applications signed by 'name', Original Mortgage contract signed by 'name', additional loan applications and loan agreements)

You have not made clear what you have sent and IF you are still using ‘digital copies’ as originals then it is best that you disclose that now and we can re-negotiate the contract and recreate originals.

PLEASE CLEARLY STATE WHICH YOU HAVE AS ORIGINALS, AND WHAT YOU ARE SENDING US AND WHO IT IS THAT SWEARS THAT YOU STILL HAVE THE ORIGINALS.

We are familiar with the policies and practices of the financial industry and that generally the original documents are destroyed/disposed in favor of digital copies. May I remind you that no permission has been given to destroy the original documents, which are essentially the property of the ‘debtor/lendor’. IF you have destroyed documents please advise what regulations you feel allows you to destroy originals.

PLEASE COMPLY AND SUBMIT THE DOCUMENTS FOR AUDIT. NO FURTHER PAYMENTS CAN BE MADE UNTIL THEN.

I look forward to hearing from you very soon.


Authorised Signature
For and on behalf of ©YOUR family trust. ADDRESS:
.......................................................................................................................................................................>>>>

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:38 pm
by bustthematrix
CP, you are definitely the man!!! :hug:

Power to you matey (...err you are male I take it?) :wink:

These creeps, imagine trying the 'certified copy' route!...and doing so with 'in house solicitors' or 'in house staff'.

Anyway, as you rightly said in your earlier post, even if the originals are produced, there's still a lot of skullduggery to argue about viz:

a) How can a fiction contract with a human being without consent
b) Full diclosure of all facts and terms and conditions
c) Consideration, Actual Accounting, Proof of Loss
d) Source of funds and monies 'lent'
e) Even if an original contract is produced, what about proper execution and witnessing by original signatories from both parties etc

There's a lot of ammo in the TRUTH tank!

Peace : :8-):

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:56 pm
by consumerpada
cheers... + agreed (accompanied by a lot of nodding).... :yes:

(wow just clicked that I can spell check using Firefox)...go firefox....no mkre spwlling mistaks

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:29 pm
by bustthematrix
CP

Do you have any pointers for how to properly setup a 'common law family trust'?

Also, why would one want/need to set one up? :grin:

If this is already answered elsewhere please just let's know. Thanks.

BTM

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:34 pm
by consumerpada
Hi BTM here's a thread that pulls info

http://www.fmotl.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=2253 :peace:

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2009 2:51 pm
by consumerpada
Got a reply from a morgage company today:

.............

Dear Sir,

You are aware that ( name ) is liable for the mortgage payments and for any costs and charges arising for non payment. You would like sight of the 'mortgage contract' in order to settle a family matter which is unconnected to the mortgage. ( my note - she means to audit the family trust)

I must point out that these letters have no bearing on the legal proceedings that will take place for recovery of the debt should (name) fail to bring this account up to date.

Your correspondence has been unclear throughout as to what documentation you require. We confirmed from the outset that we do not hold a single 'mortgage contract' document and have volutarirly provided you with the mortgage application form, offer of advance, completion letter and the title information. In any effort to assist with you query.

You say that these do not answer your query, yet you have been unable to provide any clarifcation on what documentation you feel is outstanding and continue to persue.

We have always been clear from the outsett hat we do not hold paper copies of any of the above documets( nor have we any obligation to do so) yet you continue to repeat your request for 'originals'

It appears the issues in your latest letter have therefore already been addressed. I trust that this has further clarified our position.

Yours,

worky person

........................................................................................................................


in other words, shut up and pay before we take your house off of you !!! :shh:

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2009 4:21 pm
by consumerpada
You'l love this/....well you better it cost me 11 fiat the get this answer.( oh what I mean it will cost me, as I am still waiting for the answer, I will post the answer and or rest of the convo as it comes in....

done on a website called website called ....http://www.justanswer.com

JustAnswer, which is now the largest website where people come when they want a Doctor, Lawyer, Mechanic or other Expert to answer their questions personally and quickly, 24/7. For a small fee, our 20 million registered users have access to approximately 20,000 Experts. Since JustAnswer's inception, millions of people from more than 145 countries have received affordable and timely insight in more than 100 categories.


Chosen Field for questions -- - Property LAW.


Starts...

Can I ask to see the original contract?


...........................................................


hi
could you explain a little more about your question please


..........................................
Hello,
I have serveral mortgages, I have begun an audit of the family trust to asses material assets for possible transfer.

I have asked the creditor companies for sight of the original deeds of contract. They say that they only have copies (soft) and that they are not obliged to hold (keep)the originals.(UK)

I have been unable to reference to law/statute that allows them to destroy or otherwise dispose of the original (penned) contract.

What can you say about this?
many thanks in advance.
.................................................................................

hi
i am sorry but can we be clear - are you talking about mortgages on properties?

....................................................................................


No probs, its best to be clear, these are residential properties.

..........................................................................................

hi
in that case you ar entitled to copies of the original mortgage deeds - indeed you can obtain them from the land registry - but the mortgage companies are under no duty to provide you with copies of the original applications

Need more information?

.....................................................
thanks ,

I appreciate your answer, butI already know that, maybe I'm phrasing it wrongly?

If the creditor is not bound to hold the originals who is?
So maybe instead of saying can i ask for the original contract.
it should have been WHO can i ask for the original contract.

also you neglected to mention what law or statute makes it so that the original creditor is not liable to hold the originals.

Kind regards,

.............................................................................
hi

the difficulty is that you are referring to a "contract" when residential mortgages are not dealt with unnder contract law in the same way as say credit card debts
mortgages are covered by property law and the application is not a ocntract - it is the basis on which an offer is made - but again the offer is not a binding document - it can be withdrawn at any time up to the rlease of the monies . the binding document is the legal charge - the mortgage deed - which is available to you from the land registry

Need more information?


.........................................
Thank you very much.

Just to clarify.

I am bound because the creditor made a legal charge on the land.

The documentation I signed was for informational purposes.

no-one is obliged to keep the original documents that were signed.
...................................................

hi
again i am not certain that i have all the information available , i understand you to be asking abour residential mortgages
if you are the owner of the property then you received the monies and you signed a mortgage deed
is that correct?
if not what information did you have to give and why?

.........................................................................
hello yes I am the owner.

All papers were signed, I am unable to verify transfer of monies, hence I am seeking to verify these 'debts/contractual obligations' for the purposes of assurance.

I am not sure if you can answer this question fully. ??

I am also eligible for legal aid and am seeking council under those terms. I would like to ask more questions in and around this matter.

Many thanks.

consumerpada
.............................................................................

hi
can you give me a little more background to explain how these mortgages came about and why you are not certain that the monies were received
claire claire


...........................................................................

Hello thank you for your reply, the mortgages came about in the proper manner, as per normal.

The family trust is subject to very precise auditing and accounting procedures. There is a possbilty that I can redeem the mortgages (as in pay them off - i.e you might say "bring me the iou and I will settle it)

In amounst the directives of the trust are the requirements for original 'promissory notes' and documents with original (penned) signatures. Payments have been misapplied in the past hence the strict accounting conditions.

It terms of mortgages and such the board has seen and had reports that the proliferation of hedge funds as mortgage backed securities, indicates that the lenders have traded on many of these mortgages (as bonds)

I would like to dispell this proposition and produce some kind of original document.

If though I can show that infact according to the law and or statute, the lender is not obliged to keep the original (destroy it) then that may suffice.

note: You are the first person to tell me that the land charge is the binding element, under what authority does the lender make a charge on the land? Surley because of the original application and offer? Surely it is in the interests of proper commerce that these documents are kept. (can i establish when this practice became the norm?)

99% of cases there is never actual cash given, so when you say have you received the monies are you asking if there is a statement of account OR are you asking if there is evidence of exchange (bills and exchange act) as I am unable to pin down the source of the monies. Banking procedures indicate that banks can not lend from deposits, the creditor is unable to provide accounts of exchange.

I hope this helps you understand that I am quite simply trying to verify the account. (for redemption) but it has become almost impossible, according to proof.

many thanks,
consumerpada
...........................................................................................17:10

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 3:10 pm
by consumerpada
continued from above..:

today:
........................................
hi consumerpada,

i am still a little unclear - it would help if you could give me some idea of which instiutions have granted these mortgages

......................................

me:
Hi

These morgages are with major Building Societies (names omitted)

Many thanks

...........................................

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:16 pm
by consumerpada
continued...............

hi
with ordinary domestic residential mortgages money does indeed change hands - and the legal charge is the security for the return of those monies
this is governed by the law of property
the binding document is the legal charge
each year there is a statement sent out detailing the amount outstanding to redeem that charge
claire


Should I ACCEPT this as the answer (£11) OR reply?


note to self: the fact that she is so sure that the binder is the legal charge on the land and not the documentation kinda means that when you get to court THAT is what the judge is looking at NOT if there is or is not a 'real' contract. ( that's kinda worth 11 fiat)

- but I want to know WHEN this became so... and what actual property laws....and how can I prove the movement of 'money'? :thinks:

note note to self: the legal charge is the security to your promise (so what are the bank giving us again? oh yer money....do the banks draw on the security I offered to buy....then say it's a 'loan' that they gave me...?? - all based on my promise (signed application) which is 'destroyed' ( its now a private security).... :puzz: curious...mortgage backed securities..mmm...hedge funds..... :thinks:

note note + : can anyone apply for a legal charge on a piece of land?...i digress...

Re: unable to verify your request for payment

PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:02 pm
by huntingross
CP....you're way off anything I could call my expertise....but this all looks good....

note note + : can anyone apply for a legal charge on a piece of land?...i digress...


I believe you can....I think its called a lien